I am glad to say that I have recently had the honor of having commenter Neil C. Reinhardt grace the pages of Sifting Reality. At first, I was under the impression the comments were spam, since identical wording in a comment here I also read on the blog, fribnitsworld. I just figured spammers were getting smarter. When Fribnit informed me that I was mistaken (I know, right? A mistake?), that Reinhardt was in fact a real person, I lost a bit of respect for humanity. It was regained, however, when I read this post by George, author of Misplaced Grace, a blog everyone needs to read. I don’t know if I was caught in just the right mood, but his post had me laughing so hard reading it from my phone, I got funny looks by passers-by. George, who normally exhibits an undue amount of tolerance to those who can be less than charitable had finally had enough and felt the need to critique Reinhardt’s “vomit-juice smoothie” with other than a four-star accolade.
Anyway, one of the comments made by Reinhardt did not make it through to my post, Three Questions For Atheists because I wanted the responses to be even more so on topic than I usually require. I would like to address his objections to theism generally, and Christianity specifically. Not because he deserves an answer, mind you. Rather, he offers some objections that I regularly encounter when discussing religion with Atheists and skeptics, and though intelligent skeptics do not usually offer these quaint objections, some do.
Before I begin, I think it is important to know that according to Reinhardt, he has “RECEIVED TOTALLY UNSOLICITED COMMENTS FROM OTHERS COMPLEMENTING [HIM] ON [HIS] USE OF LOGIC”. So, since I am always up for a challenge (and this is the first opportunity I have to write something since regaining power and internet since Irene), I needed a topic to get back to writing.
You want others to answer your questions honestly, CAN YOU DO THE SAME? (I will answer the first one)
1. Do you know why, before and during WWII, the Japanese believed, just as strongly as you believe in your god, that their Emperor was a real, actual Living God?
Of course, the answer is simple, they believed it because they had been raised (programmed ) to believe it,
Since no one ever explains what objections like this are actually supposed to prove, I will have to presume it is intended to show God does not exist, and a believer’s faith is meaningless. This may prove to be tedious, since nearly all of his objections are similar to this one. Unfortunately for Reinhardt, even if this assertion is true, it is meaningless. Whether the Japanese believed their Emperor was a real actual living god, it does nothing to falsify Christianity. What matters is who — if anyone — is correct in their belief.
2. Do you realize the odds are close to 100% the only reason you believe in the religion and the god you do is because of who raised you?
This objection, like the previous, is irrelevant to whether Christianity is true. Christianity being true or false is not determined by how many or how few people believe it to be so.
3. Do you understand that had you been raised by Christians, the odds are you are a Christian. If you were raised by Jews, the odds are you would be a Jew and the same had you been raised by Moslems?
Are you starting to see a pattern of irrelevancy yet? If this objection has any meaning whatsoever, it also applies to atheism. Do you understand that had you been raised by Atheists the odds are you are an Atheist? Well, DO YOU? What your parents believe and what they teach you have nothing to do with whether those beliefs and teachings are true. This is a logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy.
4. Have you considered the fact about the only reason you do not believe in MANY GODS is simply because you were not raised as either a Hindu or a member of the Shinto religion?
The same logical fallacy is offered here.
5. Do you know there are over Two Billion people who Believe in MANY gods?
Therefore… Oh, that’s it. The truth about God, or gods for that matter is not determined by a vote.
6. Do you know while over Three Billion people only Believe in One “God”, it may not be the SAME god?
This doesn’t matter in the slightest to my beliefs. I don’t judge my beliefs on the basis of others. The fact that others believe in other gods, or none at all, tells us nothing about whether they, or I, are correct.
7. Do you know over One Billion people do NOT Believe in ANY god or gods?
For a man who has received totally unsolicited compliments on his logic, he makes a lot of logical fallacies. Over and over and over again.
8. Do you realize there is NO proof any one of the 25,000 gods which we humans have first invented, then named and also worshipped are is real?
This is an unsubstantiated assertion. It also makes two rhetorical blunders. First, he makes a claim about proof without defining what he means by proof. Secondly, is the equivocation of proof and evidence.
9. Do you know there are an estimated 30 Million American Atheists?
This one I actually find amusing. Initially because it doesn’t actually prove anything, it is just a meaningless statistic. Do you know that an estimated 30% of Chinese adults in China live with their parents? Well, DO YOU? But aside from being a meaningless statistic, it is also factually inaccurate. According to the Pew Research Center — a very reputable research organization — approximately 2% of Americans are self-described Atheists, not the near 10% Reinhardt asserts.
10. Do you know as high as an estimated twenty percent (20%) of ALL those in our Military do NOT believe in any god, or gods?
Ooh, it’s not looking good for Reinhardt. According to the Military Leadership Diversity Commission, “the military contains almost as many Humanists (i.e., Atheists or Agnostics) as Methodists (3.61 percent versus 3.7 percent)” It is now obvious that Reinhardt is making things up, lying. That is utterly unbecoming of someone whose logic has received unsolicited compliments.
11. Do you know while MOST American Atheists were once members of various religions, MOST American Atheists are Former Christians?
Don’t worry, we are almost done. By now, you, the reader should be able to spot irrelevant assertions on your own. Unless he also sees the fact that many Christians were once Atheists as being a liability for Atheism, this too is meaningless; especially given the high percentage of self described Christians in America.
Well, if you did not realize, and/or know all of these things, you should know now as you have been informed and because they are ALL True.
Well, except for numbers 9 and 10 of course. But let’s pretend he didn’t make up statistics to try to prove a point. A more informative statement would be “Even though these all are true, they don’t actually prove anything and are completely irrelevant to whether God exists or Christianity is true.”
Now, to be accurate, I do not think Atheists who offer objections such as these are in fact attempting to prove God does not exist with them. But they do seem to believe these objections somehow serve to discredit the veracity of the religious beliefs and claims of theists. They don’t. One group of people’s beliefs do not cancel out another group’s beliefs. I.e., group A believes X; group B believes Y; therefore, group A and group B are wrong. Each claim, religious or otherwise needs to be assessed on its own merits. The pre-eminent logician Neil C. Reinhardt has some studying to do.
Sifting Reality 
I want to say, as an atheist, skeptic leftie… this guy does not represent us. I’d no more defend him than I expect you’d defend Pat Robertson. Appeals to authority and appeals to popularity don’t generally go over well with rational atheists. I don’t know why this guy’s using these tactics, but they’re certainly not ones I endorse. I’m sorry that he’s been bothering you. He’s been bothering me too, for daring to support George’s effort in stomping him over his vomit comet smoothies.
I understand that. I don’t think he is representative of Atheists. But my point in addressing his ramblings is that I do often hear those objections offered in discussions about religion I have with Atheists. That’s all. You don’t have to apologize for him, he is his own disaster. I don’t apologize for other Christian outbursts. I speak for myself. He speaks for no one but him and his cats. His many many cats.
Don’t be a stranger.
What about this: Atheists claim that there is NO God, yet in order to know that there is no God one would have to have all knowledge – there would be nothing they could not know or else what they didn’t know could be God. This is known as “omniscience,” which is an attribute of God. So in effect they are their own god!
John,
You repayed the LMAO with your cat comment. I’m still giggling.
I’m going to prove that Neil believes in God. I’m sure you can figure out how.
Here are some responses from an atheist. I will start by saying most of these arguments are useful only in specific circumstances.
The first argument about how strongly Japanese people believe in their gods is only relevant if the believer tries to justify their belief by saying how strongly they believe. If someone says, “I reeeeaaallly believe,” then that evidence-neutral assertion can be countered by “Other people reeeeaally believe” in order to show both are irrelevant.
(RE: The middle few about who believes what where) Historically, culture and religion are very tightly correlated, but that doesn’t necessarily apply for someone who has actually studied various religious beliefs. However, the fact that religion distributes itself so closely along cultural and political boundaries indicates it’s more of a cultural and political artifact than an assertion of truth. Christians and Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus around the world shoot themselves into space and cure diseases with the same chemistry, medicine, physics, and biology. That is at least an indicator that science is transmitted by virtue of its accuracy and religion is transmitted primarily within cultural traditions.
The ‘lots of people are atheist’ statistics are only useful when people say things like “everyone believes in god” or “90% of people believe in god.” It helps to specify what “god” they’re talking about and that belief is hardly universal.
For military demographics in particular, you can view many here:
http://www.militaryatheists.org/demographics.html
You’ll find that those professing “no religious preference” are above 20%, the largest single demographic in the military. There is good evidence to suggest atheists and other nontheists are far more likely to be part of this demographic, hiding their true designation for fear of discrimination. Feel free to reject that argument, but you can find that atheists, not nones, agnostics, humanists, or any other designation, consistently outnumber EVERY demographic except Christian and many Christian denominations.
But again, headcounts are only relevant to counter accusations that atheists are an insignificant minority.
And the last argument that many atheists were once Christians is primarily an artifact of the Christian majority in the US. However, it is useful to point this out if someone has accused atheists of not reading the Bible or being in general uneducated about religion. There are better ways to make the point, but we atheists often say, “read your Bible!”
Well, for starters, whoever offers “I reeeaaally believe” as an argument in favor of their convictions as being true, are not worth arguing with…about anything. So it’s still irrelevant to whether my beliefs, or yours are true.
Still, whether I am a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home (I wasn’t btw) is irrelevant to whether Christianity is true. Same with Hinduism and Islam. People may come to hold many beliefs because they are culturalized into them, but that fact alone doesn’t tell us anything about whether those culturalized teachings are ture. The same can be said of China, or the former Soviet Union where the governments imposed atheism on its people. Generations of people culturalized into believing God does not exist. But you cannot discount atheism on that point alone. I can’t say atheism isn’t true because Soviets and Chinese people are born into it, and thats they only reason they believe it. You have to weigh the merits of the claims.
I am not sold on your assessment. I find the “they lie because of possible discrimination” to be a weak argument. Not only that, “no religious preference” does not mean “no religious belief” though Atheists are included in this category. It most often refers to a bland generic “religious” or “spiritual” person who does not affiliate themself with a particular denomination or religious system. Headcounts are never relevant, unless all you’re doing is taking a count.
I think a good many Atheists have shut off when it comes to religious investigation. Whatever it was that caused their abandonment of their initial religious profession is — in my experience — enough to justify dismissing out of hand every religious claim. A good many Atheists who came from Christian upbringing are also part of the average Christian household. Many Christians are Christian in name only. By that I mean they call themselves Christians, but arent regular church-goers. Very nominally participating. Of course thats not everyone, but just using the name Christian doesn’t make you a student of the Bible. My mother would likely call herself a Christian but only attends church at weddings and funerals, and the only Bible she reads or hears is at those services.
A good many Atheists come from “Christian” backgrounds like these, just like a good many Christians are living these backgrounds as we speak. So for this reason, I still don’t give an Atheist any extra credit unless I know they they were a student of the Bible. Which is very few. Their lack of actual Bible knowledge doesn’t help either. The biggest example is when an Atheist brings up Old Testament laws and ask why we don’t stone people for mixing fabrics. It exposes their ignorance of Biblical theology. What’s worse, is after having it explained, they continue to offer it as an argument. Which exposes their stubborn-ness and obvious intellectual dishonesty.
You say “it most often refers to a bland generic “religious” or “spiritual” person” and that’s conjecture. I say people are hiding in that category to avoid discrimination. I’ve met them. I can name them. And there are ‘christian no denomination’ and other categories that would fit ‘spiritual but not religious’ better. But there’s no reason to argue about that because the atheist demographics are #3 behind No preference (which includes atheists and others) and Christian.
“I think a good many Atheists have shut off when it comes to religious investigation. Whatever it was that caused their abandonment of their initial religious profession is — in my experience — enough to justify dismissing out of hand every religious claim.” You don’t know many atheists. They investigate a whole lot more than most religious people I’ve met. I’ve found the converse – whatever caused most people to abandon reason and accept a certain religious faith causes them to stop investigating all religions, including their own. As you say – Christian in name only. But they all self-identify as Christian without knowing what it means, and by extension having little in the way of true belief.
I was sitting around a table with 12 atheists and a chaplain at a local meeting of military atheists. We all introduced ourselves including our religious/atheist background. All 12 atheists said, “I studied lots of religions and decided they were all wrong. So I’m atheist. Now I live a good and happy life through science and rational ethics.” The chaplain said “my son died so I turned to Jesus.” It was trauma not study that caused him to resort to religion.
The equivalent “intellectual dishonesty” on the Christian side are from those who claim not to pick and choose from the Bible. It’s a compliment to pick and choose – to use tools of reason and evolved instincts and the advice of experts to come to the best conclusion. It’s better than reading one book, finding one interpretation, and then ignoring other evidence. I’m perfectly happy if someone comes to human-based rational ethics from study of the Bible and accepts scientific discoveries even when they contradict Biblical teachings. Those that reject science and, worse yet, try to implement their interpretation of Biblical law on others are more problematic.
I have never met an atheist who said “I havent really studied or looked into religious claims, but I think thyre wrong”. Not a one. But when it comes to the details of religions, Atheists know very little about the worlds religions aside from basic identifying characteristics, which is what most people know. You might want to point to a survey that found otherwise, but I have looked into the survey and its questions. So making the claim to have studied, and being able to prove it are two entirely different things.
Second, your speculation that the number of atheists is higher in the military, but people are afraid to “come out” is just that, speculation. Its like the feminist man-haters who say 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted at college. How do they come up with that figure? they assume there is a large number of unreported incidents. So I wont accept claims of speculation. Especially when the number you and Reinhardt are giving me is more than 5 times the number the survey committee has recorded. I wont believe the number of atheists in the military is so under-reported, and over represented. Atheists make up 2 percent of the American population, but 20% of the military? No. There may be an over-representation, and it is reflected by being nearly 3.7%.
Not that you claimed to be a former Christian, but if you were, your last paragraph proves my point for me.
“Atheists know very little about the worlds religions aside from basic identifying characteristics”
Well that’s just wrong. I know LOTS of atheists and they are in the majority very well educated about religions. Here’s your survey that shows atheists better educated about world religions. This was a test, not a self-identification.
http://pewforum.org/other-beliefs-and-practices/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey.aspx
The only glossed-over caveat is that white evangelical Christians are better educated than atheists about Christianity, though not so well as Mormons.
The other caveat is that the test featured Biblical facts, not interpreted laws and morals.
As for atheists hiding in NRP, I have a member organization of thousands of members in case you want to google stalk me, so its more than speculation. I have direct reports of such all the time. More importantly, the general population has closer to 15% nontheistic even if they don’t choose the term atheist, so that fits very well with the proportion of the NRP bucket in the military. That also fits with the systematic bias in the military that gives the strong indication that Christianity and theism are preferred over nontheism – so best to be incognito. Again, these are just statistics. Living a good life and respect others should be driven by a popularity contest.
I’ll assume you agree since you associated my last comment with Christianity. As a matter of fact, my family is Catholic and raised me so, but I never found any Christianity that seemed true. Best not to be too specific about that last paragraph. You might get into hot water. Maybe you covered your apologetics for scientific inaccuracy and moral contradictions in the Bible in another post.
NRP does not exclusively mean atheist. This is a common refuge of atheists though. Im not sure what the motivation is to inflate the numbers, but there is a category for atheist and that category reflects 2%.
Second, I have reviewed the survey and I see what it questions are mostly events found in the bible, such as would be found in a US history test, not about theology. So like I said earlier, atheists do know about identifying characteristics of religions, but as far as theology, and specific doctrines found in religions, they are generally ignorant. And willfully so which is evidenced by their continued use of the same objections even after correction.
Im not sure which contradictions you have in mind, but if you want to take it to the Discussion page, I’d be happy to sort through them with you if you are inclined.
I would have expected the number of atheists be less than in average population in the US military. Of course there are highly educated people in the military, but as it is a professional army, it also has a lot of uneducated people from poor conditions. The religiousness of people often correlates whith their IQ ratings and lack of education. Like with prisoners, for example. Also people often restort to imaginary spiritual forces, such as gods, when facing life threatening situations.
The questions Mr. Reinhard presents are valid questions in themselves, if he has not actually claimed they should show proof of the nonexistance of a god/gods. They are simple questions that might set someone on a path of logical deduction. What might be at the end of that line is the realisation of the concept god as human invention. If you John Barron Jr, would try to make a delusional person come to senses, that there are no ghosts or other imaginary entities in his house, what kind of method would you use? How would you approach the question? The fact that Mr. Reinhard may be clumsy or even wrong about few details, does nothing to invalidate the questions themselves. Have you answered these questions somewhere?
John, you claim: “Each claim, religious or otherwise needs to be assessed on its own merits.” But one of the logical and much used means to asses a claim is to compare it to similar claims and instances. Particularly when culture is studied. For example much about the stone age in Europe and the artefacts discovered from that period has been understood only by comparrison to the cultures of Native Americans who still used stone implements when the Europeans started to migrate to the Americas. As religions are exclusively (as far as we know) part of human culture comparison between them and their reliability is a very acceptable tool. A great number of them being obvious human inventions does discredit them all. The fact that many of them have the same the reasons as to why and how they have been created by humans, is a nother rather obvious give away on as to how real the truths they offer are.
John Barron Jr, I really hope you are not going to take this as an attack on your persona, but even though you would claim you are not from a christian backround, I hope you agree that, if your parents see themselves as christians they have given you the cultural base for it. Even though I am an atheist in the third generation, I also come from a christian culture. Even if the society around me is formed of people who only identify as christians while they have not studied the bible, the cultural influence to me is that of christianity, not of buddhism. The cultural indoctrination we are subject to as children will have a great effect on our subcontious and emotional choises. On how we percieve the world. You say: “What your parents believe and what they teach you have nothing to do with whether those beliefs and teachings are true.” But the continuation of that thought is, if most people who learn from their parents what is true about religion simply end up in Hell as a result to suffer for an eternity, is that right? Where is the logic and morals of that? Is this a work of a benevolent god? So,which is it? Is the god benevolent, or do most average people in the world suffer for an eternity after death? Does this logical fallacy support the reliability of religion, or the propability of religions to have guessed right about the nature or even existance of a god? Are religions in general plausible suggestions at all? Possibly Mr. Reinhardt expected too much of his audience, if he meant people to understand the logical conclusions of his questions also.
Mr. Reinhardt is wrong about the number of gods invented by men. There are over 40 000 gods in the Veda alone. However, his question about the great amount of gods is a valid one in a moral sence. How can we humans be expected to choose the right one from among such a number of gods? Most people, if any, will never have enough time to actually choose from among that lot. I would guess there are very few people who have more than limited information about most religions. And the right kind of way to worship a god or gods may have been lost centuries ago, or not being invented yet. Most people in the world have to think about how to feed their kids, it is just us few fortunate (and silly) enough who have time to spend on considering what religion, if any, makes any sense.
Choosing a religion from your own cultural sphere is like supporting the home team in sports. It represents the values you have grown to understand, but the fact that those values seem obvious in your culture does not make them any more true, than any other values someone else is supporting on the opposite face of the world. The fact that you would want your home team to win does not make them invincible.
Having grown up in a culture that has a lot of loans from christianity and that percieves itself as christian, I would say what worries me most in people who percieve themselves as christians is the lack of emphaty. This applies to many other religions also, but for the sake of argument and because christianity is more familiar to both of us and most readers, I would suspect, it deserves a special attention here. Basic emphaty skills we learn as small children, and even most mammals have, are totally neglected in the intent and idea of the afterlife, where supposedly only a marginal group of people who read the bible end up in a nice place and all the rest of the ordinary people in the world are set for eternal pain and torment. This is very unethical and even immoral. Is it only a result of uningenious thinking, not considering this at all, or sheer malice that causes christians to see this as morally acceptable from their god? It is like accepting etrnal holocaust, but only when it is done by god and in the afterlife. What kind of morals lets people to worship such a god, or to claim it is a benevolent god. What is it, that has convinced such a god actually exists?
I think those arguments just go to show that people will beleive what they are raised to or what they wish to.
That said, John, you are correct – it says nothing about the truth of said belief.
However, it does say something about the probability of beliefs being true – since beliefs aren’t based in evidence but rather culturally dependent tradition and subjective wishful thinking – anything that comes out of that basis is highly unlikely to be true.
They don’t say a thing about probabilities. All it gives you is a census of ideas. No matter how many people believe what, it doesn’t tell you whether or how likely the idea is true.
why are religious people so fixed with fixing the number of athiests or gays to a particular percentage of the population.
the numbers matter less than the fact that there are athiests, gay people and even gay atheists.
civil rights are not by the number, but by the person
I think the reason for the focus is because homosexuals and atheists tend to inflate their numbers in an effort to give their movements more legitimacy. To make the general population believe there is a higher prevalence of both populations than there really is.
As for “gays,” there is no such thing as civil rights based on sexual behavior. If you claim homosexuality must be given “civil rights,” then you cannot logically deny pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, etc “civil rights.”
While I agree, I dont want this to get too far off on a tangent. So we should keep it to the irrelevancy of Neil’s objections, and ones similar.
Nor do I, but I just thought that was an important point since he talked about how civil rights are established.
I can’t tell you how happy i am that he is tormenting someone else now…….
Actually, since I have written this, he had been absent. Go figure.
Only the very ignorant do not know there are homosexual reptiles, birds, animals, fish and insects. Thus only RETARDS would say homosexuals are not born being homosexuals.
And as it is WRONG to discrimate against ANY ONE for the way they are Born!
So Neil, if gay bashers and child molesters are born that way we should support that, right?
Neil,
Whether or not people are born with an “orientation” towards homosexuality is disputable, but irrelevant. Having an “orientation” does not require acting on it.
Whether or not there are animals which behave in a homosexual way has nothing to do with human behavior. Humans have the ability to make moral choices. Only a RETARD would say otherwise.
Glen,
I was Drugged- Raped by a Homosexual and yet, as I am a FAIR person who actually knows what he is talking about, I do, as I have for Blacks, Women and my fellow Atheists, fully support their right to be treated equally.
Only RETARDS would say homosexual conduct (which I find to be disgusting) is NOT a MORAL thing to do.
In fact your comments prove that while you may NOT be a Programmend Christian Religious Robot, for all intents & purposes, you may as well be one of them
IF being a Christian is so great, then just why are MOST of the Many Millions of Americans who are now Atheists, all
FORMER Christians?
Now to the IDIOT coment from John.
Placing homonsexuals in the same catagory as child molesters
prove you ARE a total Retard!
and FYI “Oh So Very Ignorant One” nealy ALL if not ALL “Gay Bashers” ARE Christians.
You should really try to get a clue!
Neil, you are the gift that keeps on giving.
Neil,
No one here, or anyone I know, are against treating anyone “equally.” But equal is not “same.” It is not “equal” treatment to allow a perverse minority of people to redefine what marriage is. Please explain where Christians are NOT treating everyone equally.
“Only retards would say homosexual conduct (which I find to be disgusting) is NOT a MORAL thing to do.”
Let’s see if I have this correct. You find homosexual conduct to be disgusting, yet not immoral? (And you really like that word “retard,” but I don’t think it means what you think it means.) God decides what is moral, and HE has stated that homosexual behavior is an abomination. Anyone who believes it to be moral has a serious lack of reality.
Define, please, “programmed Christian Religious Robot.”
What statistics do you have to substantiate your claim that MOST American atheists were once Christians? By the way, attending church, growing up in a Christian family, etc, does not make one a Christian.
Why is it “gay bashing” to tell the truth about homosexuality?
If there is no moral standard which says homosexual behavior is immoral and wrong, and that one who feels oriented towards that behavior should be allowed to indulge, why is it wrong to place that belief in the same category as “child molestation”? If one has an orientation towards that, why should you deny him the right to satisfy his sexual desires and yet okay it for a homosexual? That is not only inconsistent, but also illogical.
All humans are “born” with heterosexual orientation unless there is a genetic defect, in the same way all humans are born with two arms and two legs. That is the design of the human, it is the biology and physiology of humans. Any other sexual orientation besides heterosexuality is from some sort of defect in the brain.
By the way, there has never been found any medical or scientific evidence to support your claim that homosexuals are born that way.
Glen
Are we Hetrosexuals born with an
“orentation” toward being Hetrosexual?
OR are we born BEING Hetrosexual?
I submit I was BORN being a Hetrosexual
and as I enjoyed sex with over eight times more ladies than most men, it seems
I’ve been a rather successful hetrosexual
Like it not Glen, homosexuals are NOT born with an “orentation” toward being homosexuals rather they ARE born being Homonsexual.
PERIOD!
END OF STORY!
I’d like to say that Neil’s “gifts” are essentially unique in all my travels in the atheist movement. I’ve learned to just sit back and watch the show.
John B. and Jason T.
First, I mispell words and make typos, live with it.
Since you brought up my “gifts” I will point some of them out. One of the most important is being known by more than a few of my being one of, if not the single most truthful, honest and straightforward person they have very met. Plus, I’ll very glady take any & all valid tests to verify if I’m telling the truth or not.
These include the standard lie detection
tests, mind mapping, body language, voice stress and mico facial expressions.
Another “gift” is being born to two very inteligent, well educated parents. When only about eight percent of all men and a much lower percent of women went to college. my mother completed two years at the University of Colorado before my dad talked her into marrying him.
My father graduated with degress in both Mining Engineering and Geology from HARVARD where he was a SUMMA CUM LAUDE graduate.
As these two read to me nearly every
night and taught me to read at a younger age than most children learn to read. This resulted in my being able to read at nearly double the speed of most college grads do and to do so with a high degree of reading
comprenhension skills.
While this explains why my reading skills are much better than those of most, I have no idea why my tested listening comprehension skills are OVER FOUR Times better than are those of college degreed supervisors in High Tech companies. (In fact, I got the highest score ever gotten by anyone in the entire world.)
Next, before I was entered the seventh grade, I had lived in two other countries
and eight cities. Lived at over 14,000 feet & in cloud forests, I had traveled in more types of aircraft, trains and ships than most people do in thier entire lives. Plus,
I had nearly been killed twice and nearly died from congested lungs.
Again, this was all before I started the seventh grade.
What had you two. John and Jason done by the time you had entered the seventh grade?
Oh yea, I forgot, I was also on a ship, which after going through the Panama Canal and stopping in Cuba, sailed on to New York while waiting to be torpeded by Geman subs, getting in my first fight when I stopped two bullies from pushing an Orental kid around like it was his fault the Japs had bombed us. I had also helped fight a very dangerous fire where we could have gotten blown to hell at any time.
EXPERIENCE EQUALS KNOWLEDGE
I have a Gifted Level IQ and Dr. Charles Hern of Santa Monica Ca, said his tests showed I use my High Intelligence (top 2.5%) nearly double as effectively as most use their intelligence.
(After high school, add nine more states and twelve more cites.)
Now add the facts I have traveled more, had many more professions & I’ve done many more different kinds of things (some dangerous like Spelunking, Deep Sea Diving, Climbing, Paratrooping & being a Bouncer and a”Crime Stopper”) all mean I AM MUCH more expereinced than are most my age of 77, much less anyone who is younger!
EXPERIENCE EQUALS KNOWLEDGE!
The facts are:
I have served my county longer than most (6 years NG and Active Reserves and over 3 years on Active duty mostly as a patarooper in the 101st Airborne)
Given more more blood than most. I gave 37 pints before Cancer stopped me from giving more. I’ve received two awards for helping others and I’m well known for my helping others.
As a lifeguard, I saved at least 10 lives and I have, so far, been in the right place at the right time, to stop Eight criminals from completing their crimes.
SO Children, HOW TO YOU COMPARE TO ME AND MY “GIFTS”?
Neil
I have it on good authority from someone who knows you that you in fact saved only 2 people as a life guard. What do you have to say for yourself. You are obviously lying about your past and only a complete retard would lie like that.
Poor Glen
living in a dream world
“No one here, or anyone I know, are against treating anyone “equally.” But equal is not “same” It is not “equal” treatment to allow a perverse minority of people to redefine what marriage is.”
A PERVERSE MINORTY?
REALLY? SO THOSE WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH PROGRAMMED RELIGOUS ROBOTS ARE PREVERSE?
Are you actually so totally clueless as to think marrige is defined the way you Far Right Chrisians define it is HOW ALL the various cultures in the world define it?
IF SO, you really need to get offf yoru ass and learn the facts!”
Next, NOT you, or ANY one else can give me ONE Intelligent, Logical and Rational
way in which homosexuals being married HURTS anyone else’s marraige.
“Please explain where Christians are NOT treating everyone equally.”
YOU FUNNY and TOTALLY CLUELESS!
You Christains treat Atheists like shit!
Go read polls and see where most of you place Atheists as far as being respected,
or the fact something like 64% of all voters would not vote for an Atheists NO matter how orher wise well qualified we may be.
This means Christians would not vote for Tom Edison, Carl Sagan, Walt Disney, Bill Gates Warren Buffet or Kathern Hepburn to name a very, very few of the more famous of us.
“Let’s see if I have this correct. You find homosexual conduct to be disgusting, yet not immoral?”
I WOULD FIND CHANGING A BABIES
DIAPERS TO BE DISGUSTING. ARE YOU SO IRRATIONAL AND ILLOGICAL AS TO THINK CHANGING A BABIES
DIAPERS IS IMMORAL?
I STARTED TO SAY WHILE I FIND ANY OF THE IDIOTS WHO VOTED FOR A VERY DIHONEST, PATHETIC LYING TERRORIST LOVING RACIST CON MAN I CALL “ODUMA” TO BE TOTALLY DISGUSTING, I DO NOT FIND THEM IMMORAL.
THEN I REALIZED THEY ARE IMMORAL AS THEY, JUST LIKE THEIR HERO, HAVE NO MORALS, NO HONOR, NO ETHICS AND NO INTEGRITY.
(And you really like that word “retard,” but I don’t think it means what you think it means.)
WHEN I USE IT, IT MEANS SOMEONE WHOSE WORDS AND ACTIONS ARE THOSE WHICH ONE WOULD EXPECT TO COME FROM RETADED PERSON.
I DO NOT ASK PEOPLE TO SPEAK AND ACT LIKE RETARDS
I DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO SPEAK AND ACT LIKE RETARDS
I WISH PEOPLE WOULD NOT SPEAK AND ACT LIKE RETARDS
ONLY WHEN PEOPLE DO SPEAK AND ACT LIKE RETARDS, I WILL SO INFORM THEM OF THE FACT!
God decides what is moral, and HE has stated that homosexual behavior is an abomination.
GOD? REALLY?
WHICH GOD IS THAT CHILD?
ONE OF THE FORTY THOUSAND HINDU GODS?
OR ONE OF THE OTHER TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND GODS HUMANS HAVE INVENTED, NAMED AND WORSHIPED SO FAR?
I HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU ONLY YOUR MAKE BELIEVE GOD HAS NO MORE PROOF OF EXISTENCE THAN DO ANY OF THE THOUSANDS OF OTHER GODS.
ANY AND ALL GODS ONLY EXIST IN THE MINDS OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THEM. THERE ARE NO GOD IN THE REAL WORLD.
FYI CHILD, IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY
OF THOSE WHO SAY SOME THING NO NON PROGRAMMED PERSON CAN SEE OR HEAR OR SMELL OR SEE ANY EFFECT FROM TO PROVE THAT SOME THING EXISTS
THUS IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE YOUR GOD IS TOTALLY NON-EXISTENT, IT IS YOURS TO PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL
Anyone who believes it to be moral has a serious lack of reality.
Define, please, “programmed Christian Religious Robot.”
ANY ONE WHO WAS BORN AS A CHRISTIAN AND WHO WAS FED CHRISTIAN INDOCTRINATION FROM THE TIME THEY WERE BABIES ON.
AS THERE ARE MANY, MANY MANY FORMER CHRISTIANS WHO WILL AGREE INCLUDING FORMER NUNS, PRIESTS, MINISTERS, ETC. WHO WILL AGREE WITH THIS, YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK/
OF COURSE, THIS IS TRUE OF ANY PERSON BORN INTO ANY RELIGON AND THEN INDOCTRINATED IN THAT RELIGION UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THEY LEFT HOME.
IF YOU ARE EVEN A SEMI OPEN MINDED AND RATIONAL PERSON,
YOU WILL ADMIT THE ONLY REASON YOU ARE NOT A JEW OR A MOSLEM
IS BECASUE YOU WERE RAISED BY CHRISTIANS
What statistics do you have to substantiate your claim that MOST American atheists were once Christians?
I DO NOT NEED ANY STATISTICS TO VERIFY WHAT BEING AN ATHEIST FOR 68 OF MY 77 YEARS & MY EXTENSIVE
EXPERIENCE OF BEING AN ATHEIST ACTIVIST FOR OVER HALF OF A CENTURY HAS PROVEN TO ME.
By the way, attending church, growing up in a Christian family, etc, does not make one a Christian.
WHAT TOTAL BS!
ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS AND THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF THERI GOD IS A CHRISTIAN!
Why is it “gay bashing” to tell the truth about homosexuality?
IT IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH!
If there is no moral standard which says homosexual behavior is immoral and wrong, and that one who feels oriented towards that behavior should be allowed to indulge, why is it wrong to place that belief in the same category as “child molestation”?
WHAT A TOTALLY STUPID COMMENT
COMPARING CONSENTING BEHAVIOR BETWEEN ADULTS WITH MOLESTING CHILDREN.
All humans are born with heterosexual orientation unless there is a genetic defect, in the same way all humans are born with two arms and two legs.
WHAT TOTAL BULL SHIT THAT IS
YOU TALK ABOUT BEING LOGICAL WHEN YOUR ARE NOT WITHIN IN LIGHT YEARS OF BEING LOGICAL
WERE YOU ACTUALLY A LOGICAL PERSON, YOU WOULD REALIZE THE FACT LIONS, SHARKS, SNAKES, BIRDS
AND EVERY SPECIES WE KNOW OF HAS HOMOSEXUALS BORN IN THEM
WERE YOU NOT A PROGRAMMED RELIGOUS ROBOT, YOU WOULD KNOW HUMANS ARE JUST OTHER ANIMALS.
SO TRY GETTING A CLUE!
That is the design of the human, it is the biology and physiology of humans. Any other sexual orientation besides heterosexuality is from some sort of defect in the brain.
TOTAL BULL SHIT!
By the way, there has never been found any medical or scientific evidence to support your claim that homosexuals are born that way.
JUST MORE TOTAL BULLSHIT WHICH DEMONSTATES YOU KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS IS ZERO!
Neil,
Your rant full of assumptions about the Christian faith, morals, and just about everything else certainly doesn’t demonstrate that you are as knowledgable as your bragging rant claimed. You sure make a lot of assertions without any evidence!
You have also demonstrated that your morality is nothing more than your opinion vs others. Pity that your vast knowledge allows you do demonstrate such ignorance. How very sad that you appear to be a “warped, frustrated, bitter old man.” With the vitriol you spew at Christians, don’t you find it rather ironic to be whining about Christians (so-called who don’t act as such) who hate atheists?
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
FYI, the reason my fellow Atheist and Vet “Jason Torpy” thinks I am not a normal Atheist is because I’m, very proudly. NOT one.
This is because I, unlike most Atheists I use Facts, Rational Thought, Knowledge Logic, and Crirical Thinking Skills on ALL Subjects.
1. The ONLY thing ALL Atheists have in common is our Dis-Belief in one or more gods. In a sense all religous people are Atheists as none of them believe in all the many thousands of gods which humans have invented named and worshipped so far. We Atheists just Dis-Believe in one less god than do the Christians, Jews & Moslems.
2. As I’ve been a Athiest Activist for longer than Jason alive, and know many , many Atheists, been a member of many Athiest organizations (I am now a member of four different ones) been to various Atheist conventions & have interfaced with many Atheists on line, the odds are very high I know may more Atheists than most do.
3. Very sadly, all of my experience with Atheists prove to me that MOST Atheists
ONLY use Facts, Knowledge, Logic and Critical Thinking Skills on the existence of one, or more gods.
4. Which means that they, on ANY other subject are just as apt to DENY FACTS
as are any Programmed Religious Robot Christians on subjects like Abortion, are
Homosexuals born and Evolution. The main difference being is that at least the Christians have a valid reason to deny facts as they have been programmed as babies, children and teenagers to do so.
5. On the other hand, most Athiests have NO reason, other than sheer Stupidity, to deny facts! That is NONE, ZERO excuse at all!
6. Jason, just like MOST Atheists, as well
as most religious people, all place their religious beliefs above the good of our county. They care less what happens as long as their precious little religious beliefs are up-held.
7. While there are more than a few of we “Conserative” Athiests (which can be very easly proven by dong an internet seach)
who KNOW Obama (or “Oduma” as I call him)
is a DISHONEST, PROLIFIC LYING
SLICK TALKING RACIST CON MAN WHO IS SO CLUELESS AS TO HAVE CLOSE FRIENDS WHO ARE WHITE & AMERICA HATING (THE REV WRIGHT) AS WELL AS TWO TERRORIST (DORN & AYERS) LEADERS.
Most Athiests, LIKE JASON, have thier ignoran heads up their ass and prove they care less about our county by supporting a ODUMA, A LOW LIFE WHO HAS NO HONOR, NO MORALS, NO ETHICS & NO INTEGRITY AT ALL,
IN MY BOOK, NONE WHO SUPPORT HIM HAVE ANY MORALS, HONOR ETHICS OR INTEGRITY EITHER!
THEY ARE ZEROS WHO, IF I HAD THE POWER WOULD BE REMOVE FROM THE UNITED STATES AND DUMPED IN AREAS CONTROLED BY AL QUADA.
John B:
“I have it on good authority from someone who knows you that you in fact saved only 2 people as a life guard. What do you have to say for yourself. ”
I SAY WHO EVER SAID iT IS A LOW LIFE LYING PUNK ASSHOLE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE BALLS TO CONFRONT ME & SAY THAT BULLSHIT TO MY FACE.
THEY ARE MOST PROBABLY JUST SOME CHRISTIAN LIAR!
NO ONE WAS A LIFE GUARD AND ON DUTY FOR THE SAME HOURS I WAS DURING THE THREE SUMMERS I WAS A LIFE GUARD AT OUR CITY POOL IN GRAND JUCNTION. CO. NOR WERE THEY WITH ME WHEN I WAS A LIFE GUARD AT THE ATLANTIS HOTEL IN MIAMI BEACH, FL.
THUS, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF TO HAVE ANY SUCH KNOWLEDGE.
AND JOHN, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE BALLS TO MEET ME AND CALL ME A LIAR TO MY FACE, SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT CALLING ME A LIAR!
You are obviously lying about your past and only a complete retard would lie like that.
————–
Glenn Chatfield says:
Your rant full of assumptions about the Christian faith, morals, and just about everything else certainly doesn’t demonstrate that you are as knowledgable as your bragging rant claimed.
NAME AN ASSUMPTION!
I DEFY YOU TO PROVE I AM NOT AS KNOWLEDGEABLE AS I SAID I AM,
You sure make a lot of assertions without any evidence!
I VERY RARELY SAY THINGS WITHOUT EVIDENCE
WHAT ASSERTION? NAME ONE!
INTELLIGENT AND RATIONAL PEOPLE (SEEMS TO LEAVE YOU OUT) PROVIDE EXAMPLES
You have also demonstrated that your morality is nothing more than your opinion vs others.
DID YOU EAT IDIOT PILLS BEFORE COMING UP WITH THAT TOTAL BS?
WHERE YOU NOT A RETARD YOU WOULD KNOW FACTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH
MERE OPINION. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
DUH!
MY MORALITY INCLUDES BEING MANY TIMES MORE TRUTHFUL THAN MOST, BEING KNOWN FOR AND PUBLICLY AWARDED FOR HELPING OTHERS, RISKING PHYSICAL INJURY AND DEATH FOR OTHERS MANY TIMES.
THOSE ARE NOT MERE OPINIONS, THEY ARE FACTS!
DUH!
WHAT ARE YOURS?
HAVE YOU EVER EVEN ONCE PUT YOUR LIFE FOR OTHERS?
Pity that your vast knowledge allows you do demonstrate such ignorance.
YOU COMMENT ABOUT MY SUPPOSED IGNORANCE WITH OUT PROVIDING ANY PROOF WHAT SO EVER I AM IGNORANT ABOUT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT
MY, WHAT A TYPICALLY RETARDED THING TO DO
How very sad that you appear to be a “warped, frustrated, bitter old man.” With the vitriol you spew at Christians, don’t you find it rather ironic to be whining about Christians (so-called who don’t act as such) who hate atheists?
I DID NOT SAY ONE THING ABOUT CHRISTIANS YOU CAN PROVE IS NOT TRUE,
SO GO SUCK ON A BROWN PELOSI! (TURD)
Wow, this super-intellect obviously has a serious lack of command of the English language. Such high intelligence and yet filth and nastiness comes from his typing fingers – I’d hate to be trying to have an intelligent conversation in person! So many logic fallacies, I don’t know where to start.
Such a braggart just needs to be let alone to demonstrate by his writings how truly ignorant he really is.
MY REPLIES WILL BE IN ALL CAPS
1. Do you know why, before and during WWII, the Japanese believed, just as strongly as you believe in your god, that their Emperor was a real, actual Living God?
Of course, the answer is simple, they believed it because they had been raised (programmed ) to believe it,
————–
Since no one ever explains what objections like this are actually supposed to prove,
XXTO NON-SELF PROGRAMMED RELIGIOUS BELIEVERS WHO ARE CAPABLE OF USING BASIC LOGIC, IT SIMPLY DEMONSTRATES PEOPLE RAISED (INDOCTRINATED) TO BELIEVE A HUMAN IS A GOD WILL DO SO
I will have to presume it isintended to show God does not exist, and a believer’s faith is meaningless.
NO, IT WAS INTENDED TO SHOW EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES
This may prove to be tedious, since nearly all of his objections are similar to this one.
PERHAPS SO IN YOUR IRRATIONAL OPINION
Unfortunately for Reinhardt, even if this assertion is true,
IT IS TRUE AS ANYONE CAN PROVE TO THEMSELVES BY DOING SOME- THING IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT DO.
IT IS CALLED THE STUDY OF HISTORY
it is meaningless.Whether the Japanese believed their Emperor was a real actual living god, it does nothing to falsify Christianity.
WHO SAID IT DID?
What matters is who if anyone is correct in their belief.
YOU HAVE NO PROOF YOUR BELIEFS ARE TRUE AT ALL. ALL YOU HAVE IS BELIEF, DOGMA AND FAITH
2. Do you realize the odds are close to 100% the only reason you believe in the religion and the god you do is because of who raised you?
“This objection, like the previous, is irrelevant to whether Christianity is true.”
RATIONAL AND LOGICAL PEOPLE KNOW IT WAS NOT A OBJECTION AT ALL, IT IS SIMPLY A QUESTION AND ONE WHICH YOU DID NOT ANSWER
“Christianity being true or false is not determined by how many or how few people believe it to be so.”
NO ONE SAID IT WAS
3. Do you understand that had you been raised by Christians, the odds are you are a Christian. If you were raised by Jews, the odds are you would be a Jew and the same had you been raised by Moslems?
“Are you starting to see a pattern of irrelevancy yet?”
THERE IS NO IRRELENANCY. ONLY SOMEONE WHO IS INCAPABLE OF AMSWERING VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS/
If this objection has any meaning whatsoever, it also applies to atheism.
IN THE US, THIS IS FACTUALLY WRONG AS IT ONLY APPLIES TO A VERY SMALL PERCENT OF ATHEISTS. THIS AS MOST AMERICANS WHO ARE NOW ATHEISTS WERE RAISED AS CHRISTIANS
Do you understand that had you been raised by Atheists the odds are you are an Atheist? Well, DO YOU?
YES RETARD, I UNDERSTAND IT TOO BAD YOU DO NOT!
What your parents believe and what they teach you have nothing to do with whether those beliefs and teachings are true. This is a logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy.
NO SHIT LONE RANGER, YOU ARE STARTING TO GET THE DRIFT.
4. Have you considered the fact about the only reason you do not believe in MANY GODS is simply because you were not raised as either a Hindu or a member of the Shinto religion?
The same logical fallacy is offered here.
INTELLIGENT LOGICAL AND RATIONAL
PEOPLE KNOW THERE IS NO LOGICAL FALLACY THERE AT ALL.
5. Do you know there are over Two Billion people who Believe in MANY gods?
Therefore Oh, that’s it. The truth about God, or gods for that matter is not determined by a vote.
THAT IS YOU JOHN B. SAYING IT AND NOT I
6. Do you know while over Three Billion people only Believe in One God, it may not be the SAME god?
This doesn’t matter in the slightest to my beliefs.
NO ONE SAID IT DID, IT WAS JUST ANOTHER SIMPLE QUESTION WHICH IT SEEMS YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING.
I don’t judge my beliefs on the basis of others. The fact that others believe in other gods, or none at all, tells us nothing about whether they, or I, are correct.
AGAIN, NO ONE SAID IT DID!
7. Do you know over One Billion people do NOT Believe in ANY god or gods?
For a man who has received totally unsolicited compliments on his logic, he makes a lot of logical fallacies. Over and over and over again.
FOR A RELIGOUS ROBOT WHO WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT LOGIC IS WERE IT A SHARP POINTED CACTUS YOU SAT ON WHILE NAKED, YOU ARE FIULL OFIT AS NOTHING I SAID IS A LOGICAL FALLACY
8. Do you realize there is NO proof any one of the 25,000 gods which we humans have first invented, then named and also worshipped are is real?
This is an unsubstantiated assertion.
IT IS AN HISTORICAL FACT
It also makes two rhetorical blunders. First, he makes a claim about proof without defining what he means by proof. Secondly, is the equivocation of proof and evidence.
YOU TALK A LOT WHILE SAYING NOTHING OF SUSTANCE
9. Do you know there are an estimated 30 Million American Atheists?
This one I actually find amusing. Initially becauseit doesn’t actually prove anything, it is just a meaningless statistic.
IT SHOWS THERE AARE MILLIONS OF AMERICAN WHO DO NOT BELEIVEI IN CHILDEISH MYTHS LIEKE YOU DO]]
Do you know that an estimated 30% of Chinese adults in China live with their parents? Well, DO YOU?
YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT STUPID
& STILL CALL YOURSELF LOGICAL?
I PITY YOU
But aside from being a meaningless statistic, it is also factually inaccurate. According to the Pew Research Center a very reputable research organization approximately 2% of Americans are self-described Atheists, not the near 10% Reinhardt asserts.
THIS IS BECAUSE MOST AMERICAN ATHEISTS WILL NOT PUBLICLY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS ATHIESTS DUE TO THE SHITY WAY CHRISTAINS TREAT THEM
10. Do you know as high as an estimated twenty percent (20%) of ALL those in our Military do NOT believe in any god, or gods?
Ooh, it’s not looking good for Reinhardt. According to the Military Leadership Diversity Commission, “the military contains almost as many Humanists (i.e., Atheists or Agnostics) as Methodists (3.61 percent versus 3.7 percent)” It is now obvious that Reinhardt is making things up, lying.
FIRST, THE MILITARY ASSOCIATION OF ATHEISTS AND FREETHINKERS\
KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU DO
AS YOU ARE PROVING YOUR ARE SO RETARDED YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A LIE EVEN IS, I SHALL EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.
IN ORDER FOR SOMETHING TO BE LIE THE PERSON WHO WRITES, SAYS, OR INDICATES SOMETHING MUST KNOW IT IS NOT TRUE AT THE TIME THEY
SAY IT AND THEY MOST DO IT WITH THE INTENT TO DECEIVE.
AS YOU DO NOT HAVE AND NEVER WILL HAVE ANY PROOF I HAVE LIED YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE FOR SAYING I HAVE LIED!
That is utterly unbecoming of someone whose logic has received unsolicited compliments.
PERHAPS SO IN THE OPINON OF A RETARD LIKE YOU. ONLY TO ME YOU ARE A WORTHLESS LITTLE PISS ANT
11. Do you know while MOST American Atheists were once members of various religions, MOST American Atheists are Former Christians?
Don’t worry, we are almost done. By
now, you, the reader should be able to spot irrelevant assertions on your own.
IT IS NOT IRRELEVANT TO RATIONAL INTELLIGENT & LOGICAL PEOPLE.
Unless he also sees the fact that many Christians were once Atheists as being a liability for Atheism, this too is meaningless; especially given the high percentage of self described Christians in America.
WHILE I CAN PROVIDE MANY, MANY MANY WEBSITES ALL CONTAINING DE-CONVERSION STORIES FROM FORMER CHRISTIANS WHO BECAME ATHEISTS, I WILL BET YOU CAN NOT PROVIDE EVEN ONE HUNDREDTH AS MANY SUCH STORIES FROM THOSE WHO WERE RAISED AS ATHEISTS WHO ARE NOW CHRISTIANS.
AND STORIES OF CHRISTIANS WHO SAID THEY WERE ATHEISTS FOR A WHILE AND THEN WENT BACK TO BEING BELEIVES ARE NOT VALID AS THEY WERE NEVER ACTUALLY FULLY DEPRGRAMMED IN THE FIRST PLACE
Well, if you did not realize, and/or know all of these things, you should know now as you have been informed and because they are ALL True.
Well, except for numbers 9 and 10 of course.
THEY ARE TRUE & SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.
But let’s pretend he didn’t make up statistics to try to prove a point.
I MADE UP NO STATISTICS
more informative statement would be “Even though these all are true, they don’t actually prove anything and are completely irrelevant to whether God exists or Christianity is true.”
NO ONE SAID THEY DID!
DUH!
Now, to be accurate, I do not think Atheists who offer objections such as these are in fact attempting to prove God does not exist with them. But they do seem to believe these objections somehow serve to discredit the veracity of the religious beliefs and claims of theists. They don’t.
WHILE NO ONE SAID THEY DID, SUCH TYPES OF QUESTIONS HAVE STARTED BELIEVERS ON THEIR ROAD TO DE-CONVESION
One group of people’s beliefs do not cancel out another group’s beliefs.
WHILE NO ONE SAID THEY DID, THEY DO SHOW NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN YOUR CHILDISH MYTHS
group A believes X; group B believes Y; therefore, group A and group B are wrong.
NO ONE OTHER THAN YOU SAID THAT
DUH
Each claim, religious or otherwise needs to be assessed on its own merits.
DUH!
The pre-eminent logician Neil C. Reinhardt has some studying to do.
NO CHILD, IT IS YOU WHO NEEDS TO START THINKING LOGICALLY (IF IT IS EVEN POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO,)
POOR GLEN,
First, you pompous ass, it is apparent you do not even know what the “PRIMARY PURPOSE OF LANGUAGE” is, IF you did, you would know I fully satisify it,
Second, YOU are so typical of those who, due to your not having the Facts, Logic, Intelligence or the Knowledge and Critical Thinking Skills required to prove that I am either Factually or Logically wrong, stoop to the low level of personal attacks.
I have intelligent dialog with intelligent people. People who are a whole bunch smarter than it seems you are.
So Glen since you think you are so smart and you think I am not, why are you not able to PROVE I am either Logically Factually wrong?
Tell me Glen, have you ever had a job
where they had to hire TWO people to do what you had, very successfully, been doing all by yourself for over five years as the National Cash Register Electronics Division had to when I resigned after over 11 years?
Next, simply because YOU, a typical PROGRAMED RELIGIOUS ROBOT
says some things I said not truly logical does not prove they are not.
Last, after you’ve been publicly awarded
for helping others, after you have served your country as long as I have, after you have saved some lives (I had to save one ding bat three times in one afternoon)
and after you have repeatedly put your physical well being and you life on the line for others even one forth as many times as I have, then you might get away with acting like you are so superior.
So Troglodyte, go play in your deep dark cave of ignorance with all your other programmed little religious robot ilk.
Neil,
Boy, your bragging never ceases, does it? You have no idea what my life has been like and I have no desire to brag just to please you – I won’t answer a fool according to his folly.
Since you are such a high intellect, prove there is no God.
Poor Glen,
You are right, I have no cule about your life, I only
know what your own words say about you.
I DO know that if you where you as close to being as Intelligent, Logical and Informed as you seem to think you are, you would know:
1. As Walt Whitman said:
“If you done it, it ain’t bragging.”
As I have actually done everything, I said have done, what I said is the just the stating of facts.
DUH!
2. An example of actual “bragging” is when a person says they CAN do some thing they have never done. Or when some team say they are the best team in the world when they have not played and beaten all other teams who play that sport
Last, “Oh So Very Clueless One”
Actually Intelligent and Knowledgeable people KNOW it IS the RESPONSIBILITY of those who say their god, or any of the tens of thousands of other gods exist any where other than in their minds, TO PROVE IT!
You are the one who claims there is no God; I ask you to prove it and the only thing you can say is that I have to prove there is?!?! “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no god.'”
You have NOTHING! The whole creation around you screams “CREATOR” but you think it just popped out of nowhere. Life came from non-life, nothing created something – and then you laugh at Christians!!!!
To make a great show of your great deeds is indeed bragging. And then to use that bragging to then decided you are better than anyone else and smarter than anyone else without knowing a thing about what the other person’s experiences are just demonstrates how ignorant you truly are. You are your own god.
You don’t impress me at all with your so-called higher intelligence.
Good night.
First, Oh So Totally Illogical One,
While my stating the truth about myself is NOT making any great show, it does demonstrate that at least some we Atheists are as willing to die to help others as are any believers.
There are MANY, MANY MILLIONS of FORMER
Christians who agree with me about all gods only existing in the minds of those who believe in them.
Then there are the MILLIONS of FORMER
Believers of various other religons who also agree with me.
And every day there are MORE FORMER Religious Believers who arrive at the same conclusion.
Thus, “Oh So Retared One, they is a whole LOT of those who would think you are full of shit!
WHO CREATED YOUR CREATOR?
WHO CREATED THE CREATOR OF THAT ONE?
Last, I give a shit less some mental lightweight like you or not. You mean nothing!
So go play with yourself.
Neil,
I have just been informed that you have never worked in the life guard industry. In fact, my source who claims to know you personally has informed me that you do not even know how to swim! What do you have to say for yourself?
Neil,
Wow, what a highly intelligent response that was! NOT!
Talk about illogic – numbers of people who believe something does not thereby proof what they believe is a fact.
And just for the record, I have actually been responsible for saving many lives and/or prevented many injuries, but I never kept count. Saving lives doesn’t make you important – it just means you were at the right spot at the right time. Members of the military, policemen and firemen do it all the time.
But more importantly, I have also helped to save lives for eternity by preaching the Gospel.
For such a mental heavyweight, you sure are one foul individual! It truly doesn’t appear that you have much of a command of the English language. And you make up numbers like “Millions” of former Christians being atheists. That is just a made up number – you have no proof whatsoever. And it has often been demonstrated that those who claim they were Christians before becoming atheists really weren’t Christian, rather they grew up in a Christian home, went to church, etc, but that isn’t what makes one a Christian.
Go play some place else.
JOHN B.
YOUR SOURCE IS A SCUM SUCKING, PUSS EATING LOW LIFE COWARD LIAR WHO HAS NO MORALS, NO HONOR, NO ETHICS OR ANY INTEGRITY!
BOTH CITY EMPLOYMENT RECORDS AND PEOPLE WHO WILL ASSEST I WAS A LIFEGUARD WILL PROVE I’M NOT LYING.
I DARE THE LYING COWARD TO FACE ME.
NEXT, YOU PROVE YOU JUDGE OTHERS BY YOUR OWN LOW STANDARDS OF HONESTY.
MY, HOW TYPICALLY CHRISTIAN OF YOU!
MY RESPONSE IN ALL CAPS
“Wow, what a highly intelligent response that was! NOT!
DO I CARE WHAT THOSE WHO ARE NOT AS INTELLIGENT AS I AM THINK
OF MY RESPONSES?
NOT!
Talk about illogic numbers of people who believe something does not thereby proof what they believe is a fact.
YOU NEED TO TAKE A COURSE TO IMPROVE YOUR RATHER POOR READING
COMPREHENSION SKILLS AS I NEVER SAID IT DID!
DUH!
And just for the record, I have actually been responsible for saving many lives and/or prevented many injuries, but I never kept count.
YOU HAVE PERSONALLLY SAVED LIVES?
YOU HAVE PERSONALLY STOPPED CRIMINALS FROM COMPLETTING
THEIR CRIMES WHILE PUTTING YOURSELF IN DANGER OF INJURY AND/OR DEATH WHILE DOING SO?
Saving lives doesn’t make you important
IT IS TO THOSE WHOSE LIVES YOU SAVED
it just means you were at the right spot at the right time.
WRONG!
STUDIS PROVE ONLY ABOUT TWENTY PERCENT OF ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME WILL TAKE THE ACTION NEEDED.
Members of the military, policemen and firemen do it all the time.
THEY ARE PAID TO DO!
IT IT IS THEIR JOB.
AND FYI, I SERVED FOR SIX YEARS IN
NG /ACTIVE ARMY RESERVE UNITS & OVER THREE YEARS ON ACTIVE DUTY IN THE REGULAR ARMY. NEARLY ALL OF WHICH WAS AS A PARATROOPER
IN THE 101ST AIRBORNE.
AND WHILE IN THE ACTIVE ARMY RESERVES, I WAS AN MP IN THE 306
MP’S UNIT IN SAN JOSE. PLUS I WAS A CIVIL DEFENSE AUX. POLICE OFFICER.
SO I DAMN WELL KNOW THE DIFFERENCE
But more importantly, I have also helped to save lives for eternity by preaching the Gospel.
WHAT TOTAL BULL THAT IS
For such a mental heavyweight, you sure are one foul individual! It truly doesn’t appear that you have much of a command of the English language.
LOOK YOU POOR SUPERCILLIOUS POMPOUS ASS, TESTS TAKEN IN COLLEGE PROVE I HAVE A PHD LEVEL VOCUBLARY
And you make up numbers like “Millions” of former Christians being atheists. That is just a made up number you have no proof whatsoever.
THE NUMBERS ARE NOT MADE UP &
THERE IS MORE THAN SUFFICENT PROOF FOR WHOSE WHO ARE OPEN MINDED, RATIONAL AND INTELLIGENT
ENOUGH TO PROVE TO THEMSELVE THE NUMBERS ARE NOT MADE UP.
(THE OPEN MINDED, RATIONAL AND INTELLIGENT LEAVES YOU OUT)
And it has often been demonstrated that those who claim they were Christians before becoming atheists really weren’t Christian, rather they grew up in a Christian home, went to church, etc, but that isn’t what makes one a Christian.
OFTEN DEMOSTRATED?
REALLY? CITE SOME EXAMPLES
OR ARE YOU A LIAR LIKE JOHN B’s SOURCE?
HOW CUTE. YOU A PERSON WHO IS TOO LAZY TO GET THE FACTS AND LIKELY NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH T0 BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND THEM IF THEY WERE GOTTEN, SHOOTING OFF HIS MOUTH WHILE PROVING HOW MUCH HE DOES NOT KNOW.
FIRST “OH SO UNINFORMED ONE”, ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS, IS A CHRISTIAN.
PERIOD!
END OF STORY!
SECOND. GOOGLE DAN BARKER, OR JOHN W. LOFTUS & SEE HOW WRONG YOU ARE.
THEN GOOGLE
“FORMER CHIRSTIAN MINISTERS WHO ARE NOW ATHEISTS”
AND SEE MUCH MORE PROOF YOU HAVE THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT YOU SPEAK
Go play some place else
YOU REALLY ARE DENSE!
THIS SITE WAS STARTED TO ATTACK ME, SO YOU GO PLAY SOMEWERE ELSE
POOR GLEN
PROOF YOU HAVE NO CLUE!
Dan Barker, Former evangelical preacher
http://www.christianpost.com/…/atheists-form-support-group-for-nonbelieving-pastors-58252/
Clergy Project – Home Page
Freethought Radio will announce the new Clergy Project, promoted by Dawkins,
Dennett, Barker and a contingent of former ministers who are now atheists, …
Why I Left The Ministry And Became An Atheist, by G. Vincent Runyon
This is the true story of a Methodist minister in good standing who of his own free will became a Atheist
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/vincent…/left_ministry.html
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/…/unbelieving-preachers-get-help-to-come-out-as-open-atheists/
Poor Neil,
Still demonstrating lack of intellect by ad hominems and foul language. Tsk, Tsk.
And poor Neil, listing a few people who CLAIMED to once have been Christian, doesn’t come close to the number you claimed, nor does it prove they were Christians to start with.
POOR GLEN
PROVING HE IS A HYPOCRITE AS HE ATTACKS ME AND THEN SAYS I AM PROVING MY LACK OF INTELECT FOR DOING THE SAME.
AS I AM IN THE TOP 2.5 PERCENT OF IQ PLUS, DR. CHARLES HEARN SAID HIS INTERVIEW WITH ME AND THE RESULTS OF HIS RESEARCH SHOW I USE MY IQ NEARLY TWICE AS EFFECTIVEY AS MOST USE THEIRS, PROVE THAT THOSE WITH HIGH INTELECT DO ATTACK PEOPLE WHO DESERVE TO BE ATTACKED.
DUH!
“save lives for eternity by preaching the Gospel.”
SURE THEY DO. AND MOSLEM BOMBERS GO TO PARADISE WHERE THEY CAN HAVE EVERYTHING THEY WANT INCLUDING HAVING SEX WITH 72 VIRGINS.
I WILL BET YOU ARE SO NAIVE YOU WOULD BUY PACIFIC OCEAN BEACH FRONT PROPERTY LOCATED IN KANSAS,
NEXT, IF YOU COULD READ WITH SUFFICENT COMPREHENSION & HAD THE ABILITY TO USE LOGICAL / RATIONAL THOUGHT, YOU WOULD KNOW THE LINKS I SENT WERE NOT INTENTED TO PROVE MOST OF AMERICA’S MULTI MILLIONS OF ATHEISTS WHERE ONCE CHRISTIANS.
“it has often been demonstrated that those who claim they were Christians before becoming atheists really weren’t Christian, rather they grew up in a Christian home, went to church, etc, but that isn’t what makes one a Christian”
THEY WERE SENT TO PROVE WHAT
THEY DO PROVE! IT BEING MANY OF THEM, LIKE OVER 300 IN JUST ONE GROUP, WERE THOSE WHO HAD DETICATED THEIR LIVES TO THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND HAD BEEN CHRISTIAN MINISTERS.
STILL THE ODDS ARE HIGH, YOU ARE SO RETARDED YOU WILL PROBABLY SAY THESE FORMER CHRISTIAN MINISTERS WERE NEVER REALLY CHRISTIANS.
OF COURSE, I DOUBT YOU WOULD HAVE THE COURAGE TO TELL THEM THEY WERE NEVER CHRISTIANS TO THEIR FACES.
Super-intellect braggard,
I have no compunction at all in telling people to their faces that they were never Christians. I am not a coward.
I have yet to see a comment by you which didn’t resort to name-calling. People with a high intellect normally don’t resort to that. And people with high intellect usually don’t go around bragging about themselves all the time as you have been doing.
You really need to get a life.
FYI GLEN,
I CARE LESS WHAT THE SHEEP DO, OR DO NOT DO.
HEY JOHN B.
UNLIKE YOUR COWARDLY LYING SOURCE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE HONESTY OR INTEGRITY TO IDENTIFY THEMSELF, THIS IS FROM PHIL RONCA WHO ACTUALLY DOES KNOW ME.
I SERVED HIM IN “B” BATTERY 321 ST FA, 101ST AIRBORNE
1959 TO 1962
(WHOSE EMAIL ADDRESS I WILL SUPPLY IF YOU EMAIL ME)
PHIL STATED:
“I have never known Neil to ever lie or even stretch the truth. I have found a lot of people don’t like to hear the truth so they accuse him of lying.
phil ronca from pa.”
AND IN 1964, I WAS GIVEN A NICK NAME BY AN FRIEND AND NCR CO-WORKER, JOHN SHENSKY, WHO SAID IT WAS DUE TO MY:
“ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH AND MOST PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE HEARING THE TRUTH.”
IF YOU WANT TO SEND ME YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS I WILL SEND YOU THE CONTACT INFORMATION OF MANY WHO WILL ATTEST I WAS A LIFE GUARD AT THE CITY SWIMMING POOL IN GRAND JUCTION, COLO.
RED CROSS RECORDS WILL NOT ONLY PROVE I WAS NOT ONLY LIFE GUARD QUALIFIED, I WAS ALSO A “WATER SAFETY INSTRUCTOR”
LAST, ANY TIME YOUR COWARD LYING SOURCE WANTS TO RACE ME IN A SWIMMING POOL, BRING THE PUNK ON!
FYI GLEN,
I CARE LESS WHAT THE SHEEP DO, OR DO NOT DO.
WHY DON’T CONTACT DAN BARKER AND/OR JOHN W. LOFTUS AND TELL THEM THEY WERE NEVER CHRISTIANS
—————
HEY JOHN B.
UNLIKE YOUR COWARDLY LYING SOURCE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE HONESTY OR INTEGRITY TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, THIS IS FROM PHIL RONCA WHO ACTUALLY DOES KNOW ME.
I SERVED HIM IN “B” BATTERY 321 ST FA, 101ST AIRBORNE
1959 TO 1962
(WHOSE EMAIL ADDRESS I WILL SUPPLY IF YOU EMAIL ME)
PHIL STATED:
“I have never known Neil to ever lie or even stretch the truth. I have found a lot of people don’t like to hear the truth so they accuse him of lying.
phil ronca from pa.”
AND IN 1964, I WAS GIVEN A NICK NAME BY AN FRIEND AND NCR CO-WORKER, JOHN SHENSKY, WHO SAID IT WAS DUE TO MY:
“ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH AND MOST PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE HEARING THE TRUTH.”
IF YOU SEND ME YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS I WILL SEND YOU THE CONTACT INFORMATION OF MANY WHO WILL ATTEST I WAS A LIFE GUARD AT THE CITY SWIMMING POOL IN GRAND JUCTION, COLO.
RED CROSS RECORDS WILL NOT ONLY PROVE I WAS NOT ONLY LIFE GUARD QUALIFIED, I WAS ALSO A “WATER SAFETY INSTRUCTOR”
LAST, ANY TIME YOUR COWARD LYING SOURCE WANTS TO RACE ME IN A SWIMMING POOL, BRING THE PUNK ON!
NEIL C. REINHARDT
OPPS, NCR MAKE A BOO BOO.
WHERE I SAID:
“I SERVED HIM IN ‘B’ BATTERY 321 ST FA, 101ST AIRBORNE”
I SHOULD HAVE SAID,
I SERVED “WITH” HIM IN ‘B’ BATTERY 321 ST FA, 101ST AIRBORNE.
MY ERROR, SORRY.
Sweet mother of insanity; This Neil fellow is so deranged and delusional that it frightens me. Seek professional help, buddy; You, clearly, need to be placed on medication.