Clever organization. Reminds me of the pieces of JS Bach which are played simultaneously backward and upside down (i.e. two people sitting opposite at a table, reading the music sheet lying flat on the table).
I’d not say that I live my life according to the belief that God doesn’t exist. I’d say that I live my life scaling my beliefs with the evidence. Once someone provides a reasonable amount of evidence for the God claim, I’d change my beliefs about that claim, and thus my life.
So Brian, do I understand you correctly that youre saying youre not a theist/Christian because youve never met a good enough apologist? It doesnt make sense to me that one would base their worldview on whether others are good communicators of theirs. It also provides a convenient escape to conceding too. You could always say “not good enough” since youre not tethered to an objective standard of evidence. Not that anyone has an objective standard, but I find most, if not the vast majority, of atheists disqualify the evidence by definition before any argument is given.
Actually, not too much. Going backwards, I’d probably have something different than “because of sin, I deserve Hell…” I get the point, but it’s not exactly how I look at it. (I’d say it like, “If we choose to reject God, God gives us the freedom to choose Hell instead…”)
More of a quibble, though. Over all, I agree with the message going backwards.
I’ll leave it to our non-theist friends to say how accurate it is going frontwards. I would think that they would, as Brian has, object to the very first line (ie, they don’t “live their lives according to those beliefs, it’s just something they accept).
I like this. My favorite part is the, “The idea that I am deserving of hell because of sin is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power”.
It also reads true backwards. “The more you have, the happier you’ll be is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power”.
Both are true. People can hold the threat of eternal damnation to control others, (see Joseph Smith coercing multiple females to marry him under doctrine, or gays forcing themselves into relationships with people who they aren’t attracted to), and people can also take so much that they harm other harm other people, (when having more wealth and power means harming or killing other people.) So having as much power or wealth as possible isn’t good if it harms other people for the sole reason of gaining wealth and power.
The idea that one is deserving of hell because of sin is true and meant to warn all to avoid that which results in hell being their destination. Those who sin are already slaves to their own desires and compulsions, but all are endowed with the ability to overcome those sinful desires and compulsions. The truly enslaved pretend they cannot, or that they were made that way by God. Anything other than recognize the need to rise above. Anything to avoid the suffering that comes with the righteous struggle to rise above.
Thanks for telling me I’m a slave to my own desires and compulsions, when in reality, they don’t affect me much in everyday life. I hold hands with a guy instead of a girl? Wow, that’s so different and harmful!
“All are endowed with the ability to overcome those sinful desires and compulsions”
Mhhhhhm, it’s so accurate for you to tell me, or anybody, what we can and can’t do. It’s like telling someone who hates the taste of walnut that they really can learn to LOVE the taste of walnut if they force themselves to eat it everyday.
You want to talk about who’s a slave to power? The people who live their lives based off of a book written for a society thousands of years ago.
Your arrogance in telling me that I can love a woman if I try really hard is offensive. That’s like me telling you that if you had anal sex with a man, you’d eventually grow to be attracted to men.
Please, educate yourself about ex-gay ministry tactics and the success thereof.
“Thanks for telling me I’m a slave to my own desires and compulsions, when in reality, they don’t affect me much in everyday life. “
Your welcome, Bryce. I’m here to help, because I’m actually, legitimately and sincerely concerned about the eternal destination of my fellow man. Call it a flaw if you like.
But it does affect you very much in your everyday life if throughout your every day life you cling to the notion that you are just fine claiming moral equality in your worldview. You live your life as if there is no moral problem being one who intends/hopes to act on your immoral desires.
It’s not the mere act of holding hands with a guy, its what compels that holding of hands, why you’re holding his hand.
“Mhhhhhm, it’s so accurate for you to tell me, or anybody, what we can and can’t do.”
Once again, you’re quite welcome. I’m here to help. But aside from the fact that one’s taste in food CAN and DOES change, there is no moral component to desiring broccoli and then acting on that desire by eating some. Yet, by eating the right foods, regardless of our personal regard for the taste of them, we serve our health and we do have the capacity for eating those foods despite our dislike. Each of us can do it. We can choke it down until at some point we’re able to actually eat them without choking, and we still might not enjoy the taste. It’s called doing what is right regardless of how hard.
But somehow, you would have us believe that there is just no way one can overcome the wicked desire for sex with one of the same gender and never serve that desire. Hell, NO! That’s just IMPOSSIBLE! How convenient that YOUR desire is like the need for food and water.
“You want to talk about who’s a slave to power? The people who live their lives based off of a book written for a society thousands of years ago.”
That book was written for all people of all times. That’s the first correction for you. The second is that truth is outside of time. Truth is constant. We can get a plane ticket, but the truth is that we still can’t fly. If we could, we wouldn’t need planes. The truth is that some behaviors are immoral/wicked/evil. The fact that we engage in them, find justification for engaging in them, rationalize our engaging in them and pretend we are incapable of overcoming our desire to engage in them doesn’t alter the truth about the immorality of engaging in them one bit. Just imagine how much I could justify and rationalize if I reject the truths taught in that old Book! Just consider how much IS justified and rationalized by those who reject the truths taught in that old Book! The sad part is that I’m not the slave to truth I’d like to be. I, too, am a slave to compulsions and temptations of my own. The difference between us is that you lack the integrity and maturity to acknowledge your own enslavement.
“Your arrogance in telling me that I can love a woman if I try really hard is offensive.”
Once again you confuse love with lust. In my world, I’m required to love everyone. Does that mean I’m pitching a tent for each of them? No. I have no idea of how badly my wife’s appearance will degrade as she grows older (so far, she’s doing great!). There may come a time when the sight of her does little to arouse. But love her I will, and the love I promised to her has nothing to do with whether or not the sight of her continues to make me horny. While that would certainly make things easier, that’s not the “love” that matters. The love that matters refuses to involve the one I love in sinful or harmful behaviors. Yours is based on that.
Please educate yourself on what love truly is and while you’re at it, educate yourself on the many, many stories of those who have left the homosexual life and are very happy with someone of the opposite sex. You spend too much time buying into every bit of pro-homosexual propaganda.
By the way, I’m still studying all that was brought forth in the other thread. You are definitely buying into nonsense in order to justify your position. More on that later.
Because I care about the people you surround yourself with Marshall, let me try to help you. If you have kids or ever want to have kids, you need to change your world view. It’s immoral to raise kids with harmful viewpoints such as yours. I also assume it affects how you treat your wife. For her sake, please open up your mind. You cannot love a woman properly with so much ignorance about other people taking up the rest of your heart. Also, I assume because the bible has many passages about the lesser status of women in both the old and new testament, you remind her not to speak her opinions too loudly. That’s not a healthy relationship either.
“You live your life as if there is no moral problem being one who intends/hopes to act on your immoral desires.”
You have failed to show me how I’m immoral by dating other men. I’m perfectly happy kissing, holding hands with, and professing my affection for other men. How is this immoral? You and Terrance tell me I need help, but I’m perfectly happy. Have you ever had hot, steamy make-out sessions with a muscular guy? It’s amazing. I’d highly suggest it. Nobody’s harmed and both adults are perfectly satisfied.
“The truth is that some behaviors are immoral/wicked/evil. The fact that we engage in them, find justification for engaging in them, rationalize our engaging in them and pretend we are incapable of overcoming our desire to engage in them doesn’t alter the truth about the immorality of engaging in them one bit”
How is it immoral? Because it is unnatural? I assume you are also against wives giving their husbands blow jobs because the mouth is not designed for oral sex. Or husbands performing oral sex on their wives. Or how about anal sex between heterosexual couples? Wives who allow their husbands to use their tongue on different parts of her body, including her breasts? What about wives who give their husbands hand jobs? Just because an act isn’t specifically vaginal penetration doesn’t automatically make it immoral. You need a better objective standard.
So tell me again, what is immoral about two men who are mutually attracted to each other and wish to spend the rest of their lives together?
“educate yourself on the many, many stories of those who have left the homosexual life and are very happy with someone of the opposite sex”
We don’t cater to the extreme minority here Marshall, you know that. Educate yourself on the MANY MANY more who leave that lifestyle saying that they were miserable the entire time.
You also never answered my question.
Would you personally be willing to get married to, have children with, and spend the rest of your life with a woman who’s body physically disgusts you? After all, you could just make yourself love it over time, right?
“Once again you confuse love with lust”
YOU confuse love with lust. The gay couple at my mom’s work have been together 25 years. They got married last December. Is that love or lust? Unless you’ve been married for 25 years, that’s even longer then your relationship! Would mere lust keep a relationship alive that long? They love each other’s personalities, they have similar interests, they love spending time together… it’s not just that they’re attracted to each other. Gay couples are just as capable of loving each other as heterosexual couples.
Please Marshall, for the sake of the people you surround yourself with, open up your mind and heart. I shudder to think of how you might treat others if you don’t.
So please show me how homosexual’s are acting immorally when they choose to love members of the same gender. Preferably through a secular standard, since morality in religion is SO subjective, (I can cite many more verses talking about women and slavery in both the old and new testament).
Tell me how exactly I’m going to be unhappy going on a date tonight with a young latino stud who got us reservations at Olive Garden. My version of morality dictates that if an action of mine causes harm or unhappiness to myself or others, it’s morally wrong. So tell me how holding hands with Eddie over a nice Italian dinner is going to make either of us unhappy or harmed.
Religious, political, and social commentary through the filter of a conservative Christian worldview. I focus on addressing why critic's arguments against my views fail rather than the traditional positive case-making for the Christian worldview.
Sifting Reality 
Clever organization. Reminds me of the pieces of JS Bach which are played simultaneously backward and upside down (i.e. two people sitting opposite at a table, reading the music sheet lying flat on the table).
I’d not say that I live my life according to the belief that God doesn’t exist. I’d say that I live my life scaling my beliefs with the evidence. Once someone provides a reasonable amount of evidence for the God claim, I’d change my beliefs about that claim, and thus my life.
I agree with Brian, very cleverly done (even if I may disagree in parts of what it says)! I’m going to have to give that sort of thing a try…
~Dan
So Brian, do I understand you correctly that youre saying youre not a theist/Christian because youve never met a good enough apologist? It doesnt make sense to me that one would base their worldview on whether others are good communicators of theirs. It also provides a convenient escape to conceding too. You could always say “not good enough” since youre not tethered to an objective standard of evidence. Not that anyone has an objective standard, but I find most, if not the vast majority, of atheists disqualify the evidence by definition before any argument is given.
Who’d have thought you wouldn’t agree Dan. Which parts exactly?
Actually, not too much. Going backwards, I’d probably have something different than “because of sin, I deserve Hell…” I get the point, but it’s not exactly how I look at it. (I’d say it like, “If we choose to reject God, God gives us the freedom to choose Hell instead…”)
More of a quibble, though. Over all, I agree with the message going backwards.
I’ll leave it to our non-theist friends to say how accurate it is going frontwards. I would think that they would, as Brian has, object to the very first line (ie, they don’t “live their lives according to those beliefs, it’s just something they accept).
~Dan
I like this. My favorite part is the, “The idea that I am deserving of hell because of sin is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power”.
It also reads true backwards. “The more you have, the happier you’ll be is a lie meant to make me a slave to those in power”.
Both are true. People can hold the threat of eternal damnation to control others, (see Joseph Smith coercing multiple females to marry him under doctrine, or gays forcing themselves into relationships with people who they aren’t attracted to), and people can also take so much that they harm other harm other people, (when having more wealth and power means harming or killing other people.) So having as much power or wealth as possible isn’t good if it harms other people for the sole reason of gaining wealth and power.
The idea that one is deserving of hell because of sin is true and meant to warn all to avoid that which results in hell being their destination. Those who sin are already slaves to their own desires and compulsions, but all are endowed with the ability to overcome those sinful desires and compulsions. The truly enslaved pretend they cannot, or that they were made that way by God. Anything other than recognize the need to rise above. Anything to avoid the suffering that comes with the righteous struggle to rise above.
Thanks for telling me I’m a slave to my own desires and compulsions, when in reality, they don’t affect me much in everyday life. I hold hands with a guy instead of a girl? Wow, that’s so different and harmful!
“All are endowed with the ability to overcome those sinful desires and compulsions”
Mhhhhhm, it’s so accurate for you to tell me, or anybody, what we can and can’t do. It’s like telling someone who hates the taste of walnut that they really can learn to LOVE the taste of walnut if they force themselves to eat it everyday.
You want to talk about who’s a slave to power? The people who live their lives based off of a book written for a society thousands of years ago.
Your arrogance in telling me that I can love a woman if I try really hard is offensive. That’s like me telling you that if you had anal sex with a man, you’d eventually grow to be attracted to men.
Please, educate yourself about ex-gay ministry tactics and the success thereof.
“Thanks for telling me I’m a slave to my own desires and compulsions, when in reality, they don’t affect me much in everyday life. “
Your welcome, Bryce. I’m here to help, because I’m actually, legitimately and sincerely concerned about the eternal destination of my fellow man. Call it a flaw if you like.
But it does affect you very much in your everyday life if throughout your every day life you cling to the notion that you are just fine claiming moral equality in your worldview. You live your life as if there is no moral problem being one who intends/hopes to act on your immoral desires.
It’s not the mere act of holding hands with a guy, its what compels that holding of hands, why you’re holding his hand.
“Mhhhhhm, it’s so accurate for you to tell me, or anybody, what we can and can’t do.”
Once again, you’re quite welcome. I’m here to help. But aside from the fact that one’s taste in food CAN and DOES change, there is no moral component to desiring broccoli and then acting on that desire by eating some. Yet, by eating the right foods, regardless of our personal regard for the taste of them, we serve our health and we do have the capacity for eating those foods despite our dislike. Each of us can do it. We can choke it down until at some point we’re able to actually eat them without choking, and we still might not enjoy the taste. It’s called doing what is right regardless of how hard.
But somehow, you would have us believe that there is just no way one can overcome the wicked desire for sex with one of the same gender and never serve that desire. Hell, NO! That’s just IMPOSSIBLE! How convenient that YOUR desire is like the need for food and water.
“You want to talk about who’s a slave to power? The people who live their lives based off of a book written for a society thousands of years ago.”
That book was written for all people of all times. That’s the first correction for you. The second is that truth is outside of time. Truth is constant. We can get a plane ticket, but the truth is that we still can’t fly. If we could, we wouldn’t need planes. The truth is that some behaviors are immoral/wicked/evil. The fact that we engage in them, find justification for engaging in them, rationalize our engaging in them and pretend we are incapable of overcoming our desire to engage in them doesn’t alter the truth about the immorality of engaging in them one bit. Just imagine how much I could justify and rationalize if I reject the truths taught in that old Book! Just consider how much IS justified and rationalized by those who reject the truths taught in that old Book! The sad part is that I’m not the slave to truth I’d like to be. I, too, am a slave to compulsions and temptations of my own. The difference between us is that you lack the integrity and maturity to acknowledge your own enslavement.
“Your arrogance in telling me that I can love a woman if I try really hard is offensive.”
Once again you confuse love with lust. In my world, I’m required to love everyone. Does that mean I’m pitching a tent for each of them? No. I have no idea of how badly my wife’s appearance will degrade as she grows older (so far, she’s doing great!). There may come a time when the sight of her does little to arouse. But love her I will, and the love I promised to her has nothing to do with whether or not the sight of her continues to make me horny. While that would certainly make things easier, that’s not the “love” that matters. The love that matters refuses to involve the one I love in sinful or harmful behaviors. Yours is based on that.
Please educate yourself on what love truly is and while you’re at it, educate yourself on the many, many stories of those who have left the homosexual life and are very happy with someone of the opposite sex. You spend too much time buying into every bit of pro-homosexual propaganda.
By the way, I’m still studying all that was brought forth in the other thread. You are definitely buying into nonsense in order to justify your position. More on that later.
Because I care about the people you surround yourself with Marshall, let me try to help you. If you have kids or ever want to have kids, you need to change your world view. It’s immoral to raise kids with harmful viewpoints such as yours. I also assume it affects how you treat your wife. For her sake, please open up your mind. You cannot love a woman properly with so much ignorance about other people taking up the rest of your heart. Also, I assume because the bible has many passages about the lesser status of women in both the old and new testament, you remind her not to speak her opinions too loudly. That’s not a healthy relationship either.
“You live your life as if there is no moral problem being one who intends/hopes to act on your immoral desires.”
You have failed to show me how I’m immoral by dating other men. I’m perfectly happy kissing, holding hands with, and professing my affection for other men. How is this immoral? You and Terrance tell me I need help, but I’m perfectly happy. Have you ever had hot, steamy make-out sessions with a muscular guy? It’s amazing. I’d highly suggest it. Nobody’s harmed and both adults are perfectly satisfied.
“The truth is that some behaviors are immoral/wicked/evil. The fact that we engage in them, find justification for engaging in them, rationalize our engaging in them and pretend we are incapable of overcoming our desire to engage in them doesn’t alter the truth about the immorality of engaging in them one bit”
How is it immoral? Because it is unnatural? I assume you are also against wives giving their husbands blow jobs because the mouth is not designed for oral sex. Or husbands performing oral sex on their wives. Or how about anal sex between heterosexual couples? Wives who allow their husbands to use their tongue on different parts of her body, including her breasts? What about wives who give their husbands hand jobs? Just because an act isn’t specifically vaginal penetration doesn’t automatically make it immoral. You need a better objective standard.
So tell me again, what is immoral about two men who are mutually attracted to each other and wish to spend the rest of their lives together?
“educate yourself on the many, many stories of those who have left the homosexual life and are very happy with someone of the opposite sex”
We don’t cater to the extreme minority here Marshall, you know that. Educate yourself on the MANY MANY more who leave that lifestyle saying that they were miserable the entire time.
You also never answered my question.
Would you personally be willing to get married to, have children with, and spend the rest of your life with a woman who’s body physically disgusts you? After all, you could just make yourself love it over time, right?
“Once again you confuse love with lust”
YOU confuse love with lust. The gay couple at my mom’s work have been together 25 years. They got married last December. Is that love or lust? Unless you’ve been married for 25 years, that’s even longer then your relationship! Would mere lust keep a relationship alive that long? They love each other’s personalities, they have similar interests, they love spending time together… it’s not just that they’re attracted to each other. Gay couples are just as capable of loving each other as heterosexual couples.
Please Marshall, for the sake of the people you surround yourself with, open up your mind and heart. I shudder to think of how you might treat others if you don’t.
So please show me how homosexual’s are acting immorally when they choose to love members of the same gender. Preferably through a secular standard, since morality in religion is SO subjective, (I can cite many more verses talking about women and slavery in both the old and new testament).
Tell me how exactly I’m going to be unhappy going on a date tonight with a young latino stud who got us reservations at Olive Garden. My version of morality dictates that if an action of mine causes harm or unhappiness to myself or others, it’s morally wrong. So tell me how holding hands with Eddie over a nice Italian dinner is going to make either of us unhappy or harmed.