Another Facebook dialogue on abortion

It’s rare that I engage in an discussion on the social media site Facebook about abortion, but the other night it was unavoidable.  Well, kind of.  My personality is such that there are times where my self-imposed restraint is set aside in a situation where I think a clear line must be made.  The other night was such an occasion.  It all snow-balled from my jovial reaction to a graphic praising President Obama’s achievements over the course of his term.

·John Barron — I see there’s nothing about the economy, unemployment, foodstamps, welfare spending, the debt, the deficit, or assassinated ambassadors on this list. Is there a part 2 by chance?
3 hours ago · Like

Jane — John Barron and you will also see that there is nothing there that takes my rights as a women away… that is the killer for me! My rights to make choices about my body are not mentioned… have you considered the rights of your daughters?
46 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — the rights of my daughters to kill my grandchildren? No.
45 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Not to mention I am not unemployed or on food stamps (I don’t qualify) … I work my ass off everyday.. so you tell me is there a part 2?
43 minutes ago · Edited · Like

John Barron — the part two would apply to the 23 million people what I mentioned does apply to.
42 minutes ago · Like

Jane — how about the right to pap tests to make sure they don’t have cancer?
41 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Will you always be able to afford those tests for your daughters? Or will they have to go without
40 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — who’s trying to take that away? Romney doesn’t want to take that away, that’s propaganda. Those tests can be done without PP
40 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — why would they have to go without? There are medical insurance plans available to low income women. Medi-care
39 minutes ago · Like

Jane –Romney wants to end planned parenthood.. my daughter is here because of programs just like that.. are you so naive that you think that your girls will abstain or not need the help of someone besides you?
38 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — planned parenthood isnt needed.
37 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — I hope he does cut all their funding
37 minutes ago · Like

Jane — really my daughter is 18 and doesn’t have insurance.. where does she go?
37 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — medicare
37 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — or medicaid
37 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — there are options
36 minutes ago · Like

Jane — tell me.. medicare.. bull crap..
36 minutes ago · Like

Jane — no there is not trust me have tried every ave. and there isn’t any…
36 minutes ago · Like

Jane — wait until your daughters are of age and we’ll see if you see the same!!
35 minutes ago · Like

Jane — don’t get me wrong.. honestly
35 minutes ago · Like

Jane — wish I could take some of Romney and some of Obama and put them together to make the ultimate President but that won’t happen.. but when it comes to mine and my daughters rights to choose about our own bodies.. that was the killer for me.. you’ll understand when your girls are older.. and wondering if their “doing it” and wondering if their pregnant.. and then you’ll wish there were programs to help prevent and take care situations like that!!
31 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — kids can stay on parents insurance til 26. if they cant find a job with insurance at 26 years old, then that’s a problem of low motivation to succeed.
30 minutes ago · Like

Jane — did you stay on your parents insurance till 26? be real John!!
29 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — I had a job at 20
29 minutes ago · Like

Jane — pretty sure your mom kicked you in the ass and made you man up… the same I make my daughter “man up”.. no takes care of you but you..
28 minutes ago · Like

Jane — My daughter has had job since she was 16!!
27 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — your complaint was that an 18 year old ADULT had no insurance, I reminded you of the option to be on a parent’s insurance until the age of 26, what’s the problem?
27 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Doesnt mean she has insurance…
27 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — that’s great, but if there’s no goal to move up to one which offers insurance, whay does that make me and others responsible for funding abortion mills?
26 minutes ago · Like

Jane — no my 16 year old was working and didn’t have insurance and full time jobs for 16 or 18 year olds living on their own while going to school is obsolete!!
26 minutes ago · Like

Jane — who said the parent had insurance>
25 minutes ago · Like

Jane — ?
25 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — you’re missing my point. Why am I responsible to fund abortion clinics because someone else doesnt have health insurance?
25 minutes ago · Like

Jane — No said anything about abortion until now..
24 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — why must my money go toward taking the lives of millions of children because someone doesnt have insurance?
24 minutes ago · Like

Jane — I just want my daughter to be PAP tested once year to prevent cancer
24 minutes ago · Like

John Barron ummmm, what does planned parenthood make their money on?
24 minutes ago · Like

Jane — the same thing you make yours on John.. government!!
23 minutes ago · Like

Jane — you are a government worker right?
23 minutes ago · Like

Jane –so my money pays you right?
23 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — my salary isnt paid by tax dollars
23 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — no you dont
23 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — the government is the people, I am the people, my tax dollars help fund planned parenthood to the tune of 600 million dollars
22 minutes ago · Like

Jane — So you mean to tell me that if contraceptives are not offered then you would be willing to pay for a bunch of unwanted children>
22 minutes ago · Like

Jane — ?
22 minutes ago · Like

Jane — I am the people and I pay you!!
21 minutes ago · Like

Jane — I won’t argue anymore.. just hope your daughters don’t make you a young grandfather!!
20 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — me too, but if it happens so be it. If I have to raise them I will. But I’ll do everything in my power to ensure they are raised
19 minutes ago · Like

Jane — You daughters should have the choice of contraceptives to prevent it.. you are so naive!!
18 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Wish in one hand and shit in the other John are children do not remain saints.. just sayin’
17 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — who said prevent contraceptives? No one is trying to take that away
17 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — just that taxpayers dont pay for someone elses birth control
16 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Romney is… that is what planned parenthood is.. but you wouldn’t know that because you were obviously not raised poor! or a girl!!
16 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — spare me. Romney isnt trying to take birth control, you do know that walmart sells BC pills for as low as $9 with no insurance, right?
15 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — if you cant afford $9 a month to prevent the consequences of sexual liberty, then thats one’s own problem, not mine
14 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — I dont need to subsidize abortion so women and teens can have sex on a whim
14 minutes ago · Like

Jane — John I never lived on welfare or took advantage of gov’t benefits.. but I was raised poor.. I got pregnant while taking the pill.. I didn’t have benefits and it was programs like planned parenthood that made sure I gave birth to a healthy baby.. that’s all I’m sayin’.. my girl is here healthy and ten fingers and ten toes thanks to programs like that.. I am so grateful to have had those things..

12 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — where did you get this idea that those services are only available through an abortion mill?
11 minutes ago · Like

Jane — Ok you are the only one mentioning abortion. I never mentioned it!!
10 minutes ago · Like

Jane — I only believe in abortion in cases of rape and incest..
10 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — thats because PP is not the only place to get those services. but my money goes to them against my moral objection.
9 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — since when does that justify taking someones life?
8 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — do we really kill children because their father is a rapist?
8 minutes ago · Like

Jane –John your not a girl being rapped by her father so you wouldn’t understand..
8 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — I dont have to get that. I only need to get that in a civilized society we dont kill children because their father is a criminal
7 minutes ago · Like

Jane — how about one of your daughters being raped would you want them to carry on the pregnancy? If so you are sick!!
7 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — why is that sick? Its not the childs fault it was conceived by rape
6 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — since when is it not sick to kill someone just because they remind us of a traumatic experience?
5 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — will she forget she was raped, or feel better about it if she kills her baby? [Related Post: Memories]
5 minutes ago · Like

Jane — ok so you are willing to MAKE your daughter carry out the pregnancy of a rape? That is sick and I am now unfriending you!! You are terrible!! That is just aweful!!
4 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — ok
4 minutes ago · Like

Jane — You are an awful terrible father to not protect your daughters!! SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU!!!
2 minutes ago · Like

John Barron — I should protect my daughters, but not my grandchildren? That makes sense
about a minute ago · Like

Jane — John seriously I have no problem with agreeing to disagree..
a few seconds ago · Like

John Barron — I do when it comes to someone telling me I’m sick for not wanting to kill my grandchildren
a few seconds ago · Like

Jane — but when it comes to my daughter.. and the daughters I have ended up with (because of other parents being piece’s of shit).. I just want them to be able to get the care they need.. the protection they need.. and when your daughters are older you will appreciate what I am saying!!
about a minute ago · Like

John Barron — this is where we differ. I dont consider it caring for my daughters by encouraging them to kill their children just because the father is a scumbag.

Jane — that is not what I’m saying.. you think every kid is covered under insurance until 26
a few seconds ago · Like

Jane — not every parent is able to cover their kids.. just because you work the postal service you think everyone is able
a few seconds ago · Like

Jane — not so
a few seconds ago · Like

John Barron — what youre saying is I should support a business that thrives on abortion simply because they also provide other services which can be obtained elsewhere.

Jane — you keep saying abortion.. i haven’t mentioned once.. Laura doesn’t understand?
about a minute ago · Like

Jane — I am talking about prevention.. taking away planned parenthood takes away prevention thus creating more abortions..
a few seconds ago · Like

John Barron — thats because Laura fails to recognize that by funding planned parenthood funds abortion regardless of their tertiary medical services, especially when other places will do it that dont kill children.

Jane — John I wish you the best with you daughters!!
a few seconds ago · Like

John Barron — thanks
just now · Like

Jane” did follow through with her threat to unfriend me, I was sure she would.  I also made sure before closing the page to copy and save the conversation since I was equally sure the positing would be deleted, and it was.

I think Jane made a very grave mistake by compromising on what she said her view on abortion is.  She claimed that she believes abortion is only permissible in cases of rape and incest.  I would venture to say she probably believes it’s also OK when the life of the mother is at stake as well, but that’s not my quibble.  The fact that she was willing to turn a blind eye to the millions of abortions Planned Parenthood performs each year which have nothing to do with the exceptions she allows simply because they offer some other services which are not morally objectionable for the most part.

This is what I find morally objectionable though.  I am not willing to prop up Planned Parenthood because they do some good.  For the same reason she or anyone wouldn’t if they put a little thought into it.  Would you argue with the same ferocity for a grocery store to remain in business who gives free food to the needy, but also advertises that rather than traveling all the way to a shelter, you can drop off stray cats and dogs and they will happily drown them in a bathtub in the back room for you?

I would speculate you wouldn’t.  But why not?  Because we recognize that regardless of what ever good the store is doing regarding its food donations, drowning animals in bathtubs is wrong.  This principle so easily recognized with cats and dogs but not human beings, and that says a lot about our moral compasses.  There would be protests all around the store’s entrances pleading with people people not have the animals drowned, rather take them to a shelter if they are unwanted.  Sound familiar?

Comments

  1. Reblogged this on lifeisajourneytruthisthedestination and commented:
    im proud of my president

  2. “This is what I find morally objectionable though. I am not willing to prop up Planned Parenthood because they do some good.”

    So, by this logic, can we drive the Catholic Church out of business?

    “Would you argue with the same ferocity for a grocery store to remain in business who gives free food to the needy, but also advertises that rather than traveling all the way to a shelter, you can drop off stray cats and dogs and they will happily drown them in a bathtub in the back room for you?”

    Nope. But I don’t accept that this is a valid metaphor.

    • NaS

      you dont accept the metaphor because you willfully ignore the nature of what abortion actually does. You have already admitted that you don’t accept what embryologists and biologists have to say on the matter. So in this regard you hold your view on abortion because you ignore the science in order to hold it. You’re worse than the religious people you criticize for having faith in the face of contrary evidence.

  3. On the first part “economy, unemployment, foodstamps, welfare spending, the debt, the deficit, or assassinated ambassadors on this list” – The picture was his record as Commander In Chief. So your questions are relevant, just not specifically related to commander in chief, except of course the assassinated ambassador, the one not the multiple as you imply. That’s relevant.
    And abortion isn’t murder. It does far more harm to resign women to the role of unwilling baby-makers than it does to end development of a potential person, thus freeing the woman to live her life and maybe raise kids later. The difference between undeveloped fetus and fully-developed and born child (human or animal). The difference should be easy to recognize even if it doesn’t support your patriarchal, amoral, pre-science dogmatic allergy to abortion.

    • Jason

      Ok, then I could amend the quip to include our embassies around the middle east which now have al Qaeda flags flying above them, as well as all the soldiers who have died at the hands of Afghan soldiers we are training, or the reduction in our missile defense systems, or the reduction in our military force. Theres plenty to choose from.

      Pre-scientific? Sorry, the science is on my side on this issue. Your feminist view simply needs to justify in any way possible the desire to kill unwanted human beings because they’re inconvenient. That’s rather disgusting, but not a surprise given the worldview which dictates your morals. Atheism lets you decide which humans are worth protecting and which aren’t, and it can change at any time. Which isn’t morality, it’s preference.

  4. “Your feminist view simply needs to justify in any way possible the desire to kill unwanted human beings because they’re inconvenient.”

    Wrong.

    Fetuses are human, in the same way that spermatozoa are human. They are not human beings, despite your semantical desire to classify them as such.

    The day I can freeze you or remove an eighth of you for study without damaging you in any way is the day you can claim a fetus is the same thing as a human.

    And despite your constant claims that the science backs you up, it does not. Speak to actual scientists and they will tell you so. If you dare. Which I doubt you do.

    • No, actually, a spermatozoa is not human in the same way a fetus is human, and now I will openly call you a liar for making the claim that you have a wife who is a medical doctor. I know if this were true, she’d know better. Just for starters, a sperm only has half the genetic make up, only the male genes and is not a human, but only a human cell. A fetus is a genetically complete human being. I’m calling BS on you. You have no clue what you’re talking about and making it up as you go trying to sound informed, but utterly ignorant, and willfully so. Your stated views are in direct opposition to published, well known, established, and non-controversial facts of embryology.

      I have congressional testimony from medical doctors and I have citations from embryology textbooks. Don’t need more than that. And I’m certainly not going to make it up as you seem comfortable doing. You sir are a joke, I don’t take you seriously any longer and you have no integrity nor credibility.

      • Feel free to call me a liar. You are wrong. But if it makes you feel better, continue to believe that. It reveals a great many truths about yourself.

        Good to know you have a few texts that you’re misinterpreting and not any actual experience or knowledge from real live experts. That might make you learn something. And it is obviously clear that learning is the last thing you want to do.

  5. I think Jane lost all credibility when she said once a year PAP tests prevent cancer. Doctors don’t even recommend doing yearly PAP tests, because they have not proven to be of benefit at all.

    One thing I dislike about facebook “debates.” Comments are too scattered and disjointed, as people just throw out a few words without thought or clarity. It’s like playground taunting between kindergardeners.

  6. Jane speaks of prevention a lot, but never mentions the one method that has 100% success: abstaining from sexual intercourse. She speaks of her own pregnancy while being on BC drugs. This shows a major disconnect between the desire to remain without children while acting on the desire to engage in sex. There’s absolutely no excuse that one should ever get pregnant if one has no desire to do so, short of being raped, that requires employing anything that might terminate the life of the unborn.

    As to Obama’s record, I have a real problem with the notion that he ended the war in Iraq. He didn’t end anything but our involvement. He did NOT end the war. Ending a war requires one of three possibilities which involve the enemy’s participation: Totally annihilating their forces, their unconditional surrender (or ours) or a compromise that satisfies both sides. None of this happened in Iraq.

    Gotta go, more later.

  7. TerranceH says:

    So, by this logic, can we drive the Catholic Church out of business?

    The Catholic Church does not receive government money for the purpose of funding itself. If anything, they receive block grants that are used to help the poor.

    And all churches are tax exempt, so that doesn’t count either.

    We can add to this tidbit of nonsense to the long list of asinine things you’ve said.

    I will say that John may simply be wrong. Perhaps you do have a wife that’s a medical doctor. It’s possible, of course, that you are married to the dumbest, most ill-informed health professional in the history of the universe. It’s possible…

  8. TerranceH says:

    Wish I’d found that particular discussion FB John. I would’ve had a few things to say, you know.

  9. “I will say that John may simply be wrong. Perhaps you do have a wife that’s a medical doctor. It’s possible, of course, that you are married to the dumbest, most ill-informed health professional in the history of the universe. It’s possible…”

    It’s certainly possible. Not at all probably or likely, as I know for a fact, but certainly possible.

    It is not possible that I will be angered by anonymous religious people insulting my wife on the internet, however. For that to happen, I would have to care about your opinion.

    • NaS

      I’m certainly not insulting your wife, but if she believes as you say she does, then she must have skipped a lot of classes. Terrance is being a bit insulting, but then again for you to say your wife’s professional opinion is contrary to every textbook in print as to the nature of a fertilized egg, then only two options are possible: either Terrance’s assessment is true, or mine is, I.e., that you concocted a doctor wife to try to grant your medically inaccurate opinion some credibility. Personally I don’t believe you, and you got caught trying to play people who actually know better, and now you’re stuck having to keep with your story.

  10. It’s certainly possible. Not at all probably or likely, as I know for a fact, but certainly possible.

    Indeed. She doesn’t exist.

    It is not possible that I will be angered by anonymous religious people insulting my wife on the internet, however.

    And you’re assuming I’m religious…why? I haven’t said so. My blog gives no indication of such. Perhaps you’re simply guessing that because I’m pro-life, I MUST be religious. Is that how you sick people rationalize such brutality to yourselves? By ascribing outlandish beliefs to those who reject your disgusting philosophy?

    For that to happen, I would have to care about your opinion.

    Typical. Liberals manage to stay liberal via an antipathy toward books and conversations with learned people.

    ’m certainly not insulting your wife,

    Well, I am. If she is a doctor and doesn’t believe that unborn children are human beings from the moment of conception, then not only is she the worst doctor I’ve ever heard of, but an idiot of elephantine proportions.

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